I give up fighting Islamophobia

[LuisDantas]

The thing is there is not going to be just one answer to those questions. Moderates will have one idea, radicals another. Many might not even be educated well enough about their own religion to be able to answer.

That certainly seems accurate. And to a degree that is part of the problem.

This is the situation with all religions really. But I am convinced that MOST Muslims do not espouse the more radical views.

So am I, actually.

May I trust them to curb the excesses of those who do, however?

Should I rely on them to raise objections that are less theirs than mine?

And is it even too much to ask for straight explanations about such basic things as whether I will have to hide my atheism under Sharia law?

 

[icehorse]

I could be wrong but I think Islamophobia was coined by non-Muslims.

Perhaps, but these days it's most often wielded by Islamists to try to curtail free speech. In this way it's similar to people who claim "racism" or "bigotry" as a way to dishonestly derail conversation. As I've said, we know that bigotry and racism exist. But if we're honest, we also know that these words can be used dishonestly.

 

[icehorse]

The thing is there is not going to be just one answer to those questions. Moderates will have one idea, radicals another. Many might not even be educated well enough about their own religion to be able to answer. This is the situation with all religions really. But I am convinced that MOST Muslims do not espouse the more radical views.

Hey nazz,

Which views do you consider radical and what percentage of Muslims would you consider worth discussing? For example, about 1/3 of Muslims want the law of the land to be Sharia. Is that a radical view? (It is to me.) Is a 1/3 worth discussing? (it is to me.)

 

[LuisDantas]

I could be wrong but I think Islamophobia was coined by non-Muslims.

Apparently not. Islamophobia, to the best of my knowledge, is a term crafted to taint criticism of Islam as being the result of a "phobia", which is to say, as irrational.

It certainly attained that purpose with many people.

A fairly smart move, for it did a lot to distract from the actual merits or lack thereof of such situations as the Fatwa against Salmon Rushdie. It is credited to the International Institute of Islamic Thought.

Moderate Muslim Watch: How the Term "Islamophobia" Got Shoved Down Your Throat | Ricochet

Now here’s a point you might deeply consider: The neologism “Islamophobia” did not simply emerge ex nihilo. It was invented, deliberately, by a Muslim Brotherhood front organization, the International Institute for Islamic Thought, which is based in Northern Virginia. If that name dimly rings a bell, it should: I’ve mentioned it before, and it’s particularly important because it was co-founded by Anwar Ibrahim–the hero of Moderate Islam who is now trotting around the globe comparing his plight to that of Aung San Suu Kyi.

Abdur-Rahman Muhammad, a former member of the IIIT who has renounced the group in disgust, was an eyewitness to the creation of the word. “This loathsome term,”he writes,

is nothing more than a thought-terminating cliche conceived in the bowels of Muslim think tanks for the purpose of beating down critics.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow, okay then. I guess when a fundie Christian I know talks about the need to drop nuclear bombs on Mecca that is just rational thinking! Hey, maybe there is no such thing as homophobia either! It's just a made up term to stifle debate!

No, that's just called being a lunatic.

No one's saying that there aren't people who do hate Muslims and hate Islam, but "Islamophobia" is a political smear word and a nonsensical concept in the first place.

 

[gsa]

It's a perfectly good word. Why have a word like "homophobia"? We could just say "anti-gay bigotry".

Anti-gay is more precise, as is anti-Jewish, but both homophobia and anti-Semitism are terms that evolved over time to reflect animus against specific groups. Islamophobia is a politicized word that, from its inception, was designed to inhibit criticism of Islam by conflating that with animus against Muslims.

 

[LuisDantas]

And, according to some, to make censorship attempts appear more palatable as they dress themselves up as opposing "irrational Islamophobia" as opposed to simple criticism of Islamic positions and practices.

For a few years now I have been seeking evidence to clarify the matters. And what I learned is not encouraging.

 

[Revoltingest]

If we're gonna have words like "homophobia", then we're gonna have neologisms like "Islamophobia". I don't like this proliferation either, but one is as valid as the other, & whichever stick in the language will become real words.

 

[nazz]

Apparently not. Islamophobia, to the best of my knowledge, is a term crafted to taint criticism of Islam as being the result of a "phobia", which is to say, as irrational.

It certainly attained that purpose with many people.

A fairly smart move, for it did a lot to distract from the actual merits or lack thereof of such situations as the Fatwa against Salmon Rushdie. It is credited to the International Institute of Islamic Thought.

Moderate Muslim Watch: How the Term "Islamophobia" Got Shoved Down Your Throat | Ricochet

Thanks. I stand corrected.

 

[nazz]

Hey nazz,

Which views do you consider radical and what percentage of Muslims would you consider worth discussing? For example, about 1/3 of Muslims want the law of the land to be Sharia. Is that a radical view? (It is to me.) Is a 1/3 worth discussing? (it is to me.)

I'm skeptical of figures like that. But even if accurate what does that mean? There is no one "sharia law". There are different interpretations ranging from moderate to radical.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm skeptical of figures like that. But even if accurate what does that mean? There is no one "sharia law". There are different interpretations ranging from moderate to radical.

And many people would rather not have to be entangled in that matter. Particularly when Sharia is at least nominally the mark of a theocracy.

 

[icehorse]

I'm skeptical of figures like that. But even if accurate what does that mean? There is no one "sharia law". There are different interpretations ranging from moderate to radical.

This poll is worth having a look at. As you do, remember that the vast majority of Muslims live in the countries represented in this poll:

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

 

[Cephus]

This poll is worth having a look at. As you do, remember that the vast majority of Muslims live in the countries represented in this poll:

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Is that the one where they reveal that 78% of Muslims living in Iraq want the death penalty for apostates?

 

[Smart_Guy]

I understand that some people have very good reasons to hate Muslims and Islam, but what I can't understand is generalizing it. I don't deserved being hated or disrespectfully addressed in a generalization! I'd never hurt a soul!

I can't believe how irrational some people can be!

 

[YmirGF]

I understand that some people have very good reasons to hate Muslims and Islam, but what I can't understand is generalizing it. I don't deserved being hated or disrespectfully addressed in a generalization! I'd never hurt a soul!

I can't believe how irrational some people can be!

This is what I think is part of the problem, Smart_guy. I think most of us appreciate that there are Neanderthals who walk among us, but fortunately they are few and far between. I know many people who have grave concerns about Islam, but I have never personally met a person who hated Islam and Muslims.

 

[Smart_Guy]

This is what I think is part of the problem, Smart_guy. I think most of us appreciate that there are Neanderthals who walk among us, but fortunately they are few and far between. I know many people who have grave concerns about Islam, but I have never personally met a person who hated Islam and Muslims.

I suppose you're right.

The generalizing attitude I see still bothers me when I look at it. Sometimes people don't tell they hate something, they give you an impression of it. Oh well, nothing is perfect, I guess.

 

[Caligula]

The generalizing attitude I see still bothers me when I look at it. Sometimes people don't tell they hate something, they give you an impression of it. Oh well, nothing is perfect, I guess.

Could you provide an example of "rational fear" where the generalizing attitude argument could not be made as to declare it irrational?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Could you provide an example of "rational fear" where the generalizing attitude argument could not be made as to declare it irrational?

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to that.

But I'm not talking about fear, I'm talking about the treatment. For my last comment, I feel bad when someone says Muslims this and Muslims that. That's all. I keep getting this "I can't believe Muslims do that" and similar when I talk nice to people on the internet. It does not bother me much, but it does give some kinda bad feeling.

 

[Caligula]

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to that.

But I'm not talking about fear, I'm talking about the treatment. For my last comment, I feel bad when someone says Muslims this and Muslims that. That's all. I keep getting this "I can't believe Muslims do that" and similar when I talk nice to people on the internet. It does not bother me much, but it does give some kinda bad feeling.

I agree with you.
The point I was trying to make is that "let's not generalize!" is not an argument against any kind of phobia. OP defined Islamophobia as being an "irrational fear of Islam". I now guess he was talking about hatred towards Islam an Muslims.

 

[LuisDantas]

This poll is worth having a look at. As you do, remember that the vast majority of Muslims live in the countries represented in this poll:

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Something I just thought: what exactly should one infer from a Muslim that lives in a largely Muslim society answering in a poll that he does want Sharia law?

How often will that answer be due to rote action learned from peer pressure, (I figure it would be a fairly big scandal for a Muslim to say openly that he would not have Sharia Law among his relatives) and how often will it be due to personal conviction that there is a significant need for Sharia to be applied? And in the last case, what can we infer about wheter the desire involves non-Muslims as well?

There is probably a lot of room between those two extremes. I think we would need to dig a lot deeper to learn the actual desires of the Muslim communities.

Of course, then we would need to deal with regional variations, and with the considerable challenge of ensuring that those who have an opinion have a degree of understanding of what they are opining about (I am not optimistic in that regard).

Even if we overcome all those challenges, though, in the end it will still be a matter of whether there is enough public support for what is still at least superficially and by the available evidence a fairly oppressive law.

Which I suppose is reason enough for secular governments to take steps to oppose or even outlaw it, until and unless it is more clearly explained and shown to be compatible with basic personal freedoms (or adapted for that goal, if need be).

So much for Islamophobia, apparently.