I give up fighting Islamophobia

[Debater Slayer]

You're not a peacemaker, are you???

Being a peacemaker has nothing to do with being a misguided, starry-eyed apologist.

 

[icehorse]

I understand that some people have very good reasons to hate Muslims and Islam, but what I can't understand is generalizing it. I don't deserved being hated or disrespectfully addressed in a generalization! I'd never hurt a soul!

I can't believe how irrational some people can be!

Hey Smart_Guy! Hold on there a second!

Islam is a set of ideas, you are a person. As you know, I find Muhammad to be a dubious role model and I find the Quran to be a dubious moral guide. But what I'm genuinely curious about is what values you think Islam has taught you! (And I'd be curious to know how you derived those values?)

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey Smart_Guy! Hold on there a second!

Islam is a set of ideas, you are a person. As you know, I find Muhammad to be a dubious role model and I find the Quran to be a dubious moral guide. But what I'm genuinely curious about is what values you think Islam has taught you! (And I'd be curious to know how you derived those values?)

Um, I think you're confusing this thread with another one?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hey Smart_Guy! Hold on there a second!

Islam is a set of ideas, you are a person. As you know, I find Muhammad to be a dubious role model and I find the Quran to be a dubious moral guide. But what I'm genuinely curious about is what values you think Islam has taught you! (And I'd be curious to know how you derived those values?)

Very funny indeed.
A month ago i was doing my rounds at a mental institution and my patient asked me exactly the same question.

 

[gsa]

Very funny indeed.
A month ago i was doing my rounds at a mental institution and my patient asked me exactly the same question.

Are you implying that finding the claims of the Quran and Muhammad to be dubious is sign of mental illness?

 

[LuisDantas]

Very funny indeed.
A month ago i was doing my rounds at a mental institution and my patient asked me exactly the same question.

Do you find it funny? I assure you that I do not. I very much doubt the question was meant to be funny in anyway, but I suppose Icehorse should speak on his own behalf on this.

 

[Cephus]

I did explain later that it was the generalizing issue that bothers me. It is like saying that those using a lion for their avatars are (put any negative calling here) instead of them saying (Cephus is this and that) knowing you are using such an avatar.

You're the one that chooses to take offense at that. I couldn't care less what people say about lion avatars. It means absolutely nothing to me.

 

[gsa]

You're the one that chooses to take offense at that. I couldn't care less what people say about lion avatars. It means absolutely nothing to me.

I will only find it offensive if it turns out to be Aslan.

 

[nazz]

Apparently not. Islamophobia, to the best of my knowledge, is a term crafted to taint criticism of Islam as being the result of a "phobia", which is to say, as irrational.

It certainly attained that purpose with many people.

A fairly smart move, for it did a lot to distract from the actual merits or lack thereof of such situations as the Fatwa against Salmon Rushdie. It is credited to the International Institute of Islamic Thought.

Moderate Muslim Watch: How the Term "Islamophobia" Got Shoved Down Your Throat | Ricochet

Actually drilling down a little more I found this:

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word means "Intense dislike or fear of Islam, esp. as a political force; hostility or prejudice towards Muslims" and is attested to in English as early as 1923.[3]​

 

[nazz]

And many people would rather not have to be entangled in that matter. Particularly when Sharia is at least nominally the mark of a theocracy.

Well, of course. I wouldn't want to be under it either. But if among Muslims who support its imposition many say it should only apply to Muslims.

 

[nazz]

This poll is worth having a look at. As you do, remember that the vast majority of Muslims live in the countries represented in this poll:

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Thank you, very enlightening! It backs up what I said and also has some surprising and interesting stats I would not have expected such as opposition to divorce and polygamy as immoral even though sharia allows for both. Most salient is the fact is that the vast majority of Muslims support freedom of religion for all.

 

[LuisDantas]

Actually drilling down a little more I found this:

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word means "Intense dislike or fear of Islam, esp. as a political force; hostility or prejudice towards Muslims" and is attested to in English as early as 1923.[3]​

Fair observation. The word itself is more ancient than I implied previously.

I must admit that I actually had similar info but neglected to mention it, which was probably somewhat misleading. I am truly sorry for that.

All the same, I still think its use has been encouraged entirely out of proportion since some time around the 1980s or 1990s and that the main purpose of that encouragement was to brand largely legitimate criticism of Islam (or as Farouk might perhaps prefer, of the Religion of the Quran as it is actually practiced by actual people) as a phobia, and therefore as an irrational reaction. That may well be arguable, although I don't think I have ever seen any serious challenge to that claim. Then again, I have not looked for that challlenge either.

In any case, it is very clear to me that most uses of the word these days are rather premature and shallow, often seeming to take for granted that Islam must not be criticized, apparently just because it is a religion. And that just will not do. I will not accept such a stance as legitimate, or even as defensable.

 

[nazz]

This is what I think is part of the problem, Smart_guy. I think most of us appreciate that there are Neanderthals who walk among us, but fortunately they are few and far between. I know many people who have grave concerns about Islam, but I have never personally met a person who hated Islam and Muslims.

Man, you must know too many fundamentalist Christians. I mentioned one who believes we need to nuke Mecca. I'm not making that up.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, of course. I wouldn't want to be under it either. But if among Muslims who support its imposition many say it should only apply to Muslims.

Fair enough. But then I can't help but wonder what exactly will protect non-Muslims from being accused of being "treacherous anti-Muslims" under those circunstances.

How much justification was there for Salmam Rushdie's Fatwa exactly? How different from him are you and I, or anyone else really?

 

[YmirGF]

Man, you must know too many fundamentalist Christians. I mentioned one who believes we need to nuke Mecca. I'm not making that up.

I do not personally know any fundies of the religious kind... other than on RF.

 

[nazz]

Fair observation. The word itself is more ancient than I implied previously.

I must admit that I actually had similar info but neglected to mention it, which was probably somewhat misleading. I am truly sorry for that.

All the same, I still think its use has been encouraged entirely out of proportion since some time around the 1980s or 1990s and that the main purpose of that encouragement was to brand largely legitimate criticism of Islam (or as Farouk might perhaps prefer, of the Religion of the Quran as it is actually practiced by actual people) as a phobia, and therefore as an irrational reaction. That may well be arguable, although I don't think I have ever seen any serious challenge to that claim. Then again, I have not looked for that challlenge either.

In any case, it is very clear to me that most uses of the word these days are rather premature and shallow, often seeming to take for granted that Islam must not be criticized, apparently just because it is a religion. And that just will not do. I will not accept such a stance as legitimate, or even as defensable.

It's actually news to me that the term is used in that manner. I personally have never used it like that and I agree that labeling people Islamophobes simply because they criticize Islam is illegitimate and inappropriate.

 

[LuisDantas]

Most salient is the fact is that the vast majority of Muslims support freedom of religion for all.

In all honesty, I am just not too certain that they truly do. Sure, they will say so, and often be sincere at that.

But to which extent do they even understand the meaning and implications of freedom of religion? I don't doubt that many have become so used to seeing the world as divided among Muslims, People of the Book and Some Other Groups That Do Not Really Count that they don't think Freedom of Religion to at all imply accepting, say, Hindus, Satanists or Atheists as fully entitled people in their societies.

That is not a Muslim exclusivity, of course. I have seem plenty of non-Muslim people with similar biases and conditionings. But it does seem to happen alarmingly often in Muslim societies, and deserves some averiguation.

 

[gsa]

Most salient is the fact is that the vast majority of Muslims support freedom of religion for all.

The numbers I am looking at show that 76% of Muslims in South Asia and 56% of Muslims in the Middle East support execution for Muslims who leave the religion. Over a quarter of Muslims in Southeast Asia feel the same, and only in Central Asia and Europe do we see very small numbers in favor of execution for apostasy.

This does not seem to demonstrate that the vast majority of Muslims support freedom of religion for all.

Edit: I also don't see anything about blasphemy laws or punishments shy of execution, both germane to the idea of religious freedom...and this is just religious freedom for ex-Muslims.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's actually news to me that the term is used in that manner. I personally have never used it like that and I agree that labeling people Islamophobes simply because they criticize Islam is illegitimate and inappropriate.

Look around a bit and you will see that a few posters have in fact used the term in that exact manner in the least week or so. It has been applied to me, even, I think. I can't be certain because I glossed over some of the most immature and disgusting posts.

 

[nazz]

Fair enough. But then I can't help but wonder what exactly will protect non-Muslims from being accused of being "treacherous anti-Muslims" under those circunstances.

How much justification was there for Salmam Rushdie's Fatwa exactly? How different from him are you and I, or anyone else really?

That fatwa was issued by Ayatollah Khomeini so consider the source.