I give up fighting Islamophobia

[nazz]

The numbers I am looking at show that 76% of Muslims in South Asia and 56% of Muslims in the Middle East support execution for Muslims who leave the religion. Over a quarter of Muslims in Southeast Asia feel the same, and only in Central Asia and Europe do we see very small numbers in favor of execution for apostasy.

This does not seem to demonstrate that the vast majority of Muslims support freedom of religion for all.

Edit: I also don't see anything about blasphemy laws or punishments shy of execution, both germane to the idea of religious freedom...and this is just religious freedom for ex-Muslims.

I was referring to this:

A majority of Muslims in most countries surveyed say they are “very free” to practice their religion. The only countries where fewer than half of Muslims say they are very free to practice their faith are Iraq (48%), Egypt (46%) and Uzbekistan (39%).

The survey also asked Muslims whether people of other faiths in their country are very free, somewhat free, not too free or not at all free to practice their religion; a follow-up question asked Muslims whether they consider this “a good thing” or “a bad thing.” In 31 of the 38 countries where the question was asked, majorities of Muslims say people of other faiths can practice their religion very freely. (The question was not asked in Afghanistan.) And of those who share this assessment, overwhelming majorities consider it a good thing. This includes median percentages of more than nine-in-ten in South Asia (97%), Southern and Eastern Europe (95%), sub-Saharan Africa (94%), Southeast Asia (93%) and Central Asia (92%). In the Middle East-North Africa region, nearly as many (85%) share this view.

There are a few countries where 10% or more of Muslims say non-Muslims are either “not too free” or “not at all free” to practice their faith. These include Egypt (18%), Turkey (14%), Iraq (13%), Djibouti (11%), Tajikistan (11%) and the Palestinian territories (10%). Very few Muslims in these countries call this lack of religious freedom “a good thing.” Egypt is the only country in which more than one-tenth (12%) of the total Muslim population says it is a good thing that non-Muslims are not free to practice their faith.
​

I agree that contradicts the idea of executing those who leave Islam but then one should not apply too much logic to religious beliefs Maybe they just mean religious freedom for non-Muslims!

 

[Sees]

The numbers I am looking at show that 76% of Muslims in South Asia and 56% of Muslims in the Middle East support execution for Muslims who leave the religion. Over a quarter of Muslims in Southeast Asia feel the same, and only in Central Asia and Europe do we see very small numbers in favor of execution for apostasy.

This does not seem to demonstrate that the vast majority of Muslims support freedom of religion for all.

Edit: I also don't see anything about blasphemy laws or punishments shy of execution, both germane to the idea of religious freedom...and this is just religious freedom for ex-Muslims.

You can bump up numbers quite a bit if the Q&A was kept in house.

 

[gsa]

I agree that contradicts the idea of executing those who leave Islam but then one should not apply too much logic to religious beliefs Maybe they just mean religious freedom for non-Muslims!

Right, but think of the pressure to convert, and the paucity of actual religious minorities in these countries. In practice this means next to no religious freedom. And the most extreme punishment for the only significant form of religious freedom available to Muslims in these countries.

 

[gsa]

You can bump up numbers quite a bit if the Q&A was kept in house.

How do you mean?

 

[nazz]

In all honesty, I am just not too certain that they truly do. Sure, they will say so, and often be sincere at that.

But to which extent do they even understand the meaning and implications of freedom of religion? I don't doubt that many have become so used to seeing the world as divided among Muslims, People of the Book and Some Other Groups That Do Not Really Count that they don't think Freedom of Religion to at all imply accepting, say, Hindus, Satanists or Atheists as fully entitled people in their societies.

That is not a Muslim exclusivity, of course. I have seem plenty of non-Muslim people with similar biases and conditionings. But it does seem to happen alarmingly often in Muslim societies, and deserves some averiguation.

There may be some truth in that assertion. We couldn't say for sure unless there was a follow-up poll asking for more specific information.

 

[nazz]

Right, but think of the pressure to convert, and the paucity of actual religious minorities in these countries. In practice this means next to no religious freedom. And the most extreme punishment for the only significant form of religious freedom available to Muslims in these countries.

You know for me to address this would mean going back to defending Islam I would just encourage you to learn more about these ideas and see if they are really valid.

 

[Sees]

How do you mean?

If there isn't confidence it will be kept amongst Muslims, you will get different answers than otherwise. I won't go into that a lot but it's pretty easy for folks to confirm with a little effort. It's by no means a rare thing.

 

[gsa]

You know for me to address this would mean going back to defending Islam I would just encourage you to learn more about these ideas and see if they are really valid.

I'm going off of the poll, which says that a substantial minority if not majority of Muslims supports execution for apostasy. And since that appears to include apostates like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I can only assume that I have, in fact, heard enough to make a reasonable judgment.

 

[gsa]

If there isn't confidence it will be kept amongst Muslims, you will get different answers than otherwise. I won't go into that a lot but it's pretty easy for folks to confirm with a little effort. It's by no means a rare thing.

oh yeah I agree.

 

[nazz]

Disrespect and violence are not always optional. Depends what religion you're talking about. One in particular commands it. Others specifically rule against it, in which case, then it would be optionally violating the tenets of that faith.

^case in point

 

[nazz]

... and then there are people who don't know anything about Islam and have all kinds of misconceptions about it, such as the view that things like severe punishment for homosexuality and lashing have no basis in Islamic texts at all, among many other examples.

Well yeah, that is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.

A lot of people who are ignorant about Islam have a negative view of it based on misconceptions, and a lot of people who are all too educated on it have a negative view of it based on actual texts that are widely accepted among Muslims.

But again, what religious texts may or may not say matters little. what matters is what people actually believe and practice.

 

[nazz]

I'm going off of the poll, which says that a substantial minority if not majority of Muslims supports execution for apostasy. And since that appears to include apostates like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I can only assume that I have, in fact, heard enough to make a reasonable judgment.

And I'm talking about actual history which I've studied. So I know the idea that general the lack of religious minorities in Islamic lands has very little to do with any pressure to convert.

 

[gsa]

And I'm talking about actual history which I've studied. So I know the idea that general the lack of religious minorities in Islamic lands has very little to do with any pressure to convert.

There are many factors historically, but looking at modern societies in the Middle East how can you plausibly state there is no pressure? Certainly Zoroastrians and the Bahai in Iran have experienced considerable pressure to convert. Christians in Gaza and Egypt. Or just pressure to leave, as with Jews.

 

[nazz]

There are many factors historically, but looking at modern societies in the Middle East how can you plausibly state there is no pressure? Certainly Zoroastrians and the Bahai in Iran have experienced considerable pressure to convert. Christians in Gaza and Egypt. Or just pressure to leave, as with Jews.

I am speaking generally over the broad expanse of history. Not isolated instances. Looked at in that way pressure to convert is not a normal feature of Islam but an aberration.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am speaking generally over the broad expanse of history. Not isolated instances. Looked at in that way pressure to convert is not a normal feature of Islam but an aberration.

Or so we are told, anyway. The evidence is not altogether compelling, though. Certainly not the evidence of the present times.

 

[gsa]

Or so we are told, anyway. The evidence is not altogether compelling, though. Certainly not the evidence of the present times.

I agree. I think that it is basically impossible to ascertain what the social pressures were. It was certainly more tolerant than Christianity for a long period of time; there's no corresponding sustained period of religious toleration in Europe, at least for certain designated groups. But I am not overly concerned with the historical record. Today is what matters.

 

[Godobeyer]

I was referring to this:

A majority of Muslims in most countries surveyed say they are “very free” to practice their religion. The only countries where fewer than half of Muslims say they are very free to practice their faith are Iraq (48%), Egypt (46%) and Uzbekistan (39%).

The survey also asked Muslims whether people of other faiths in their country are very free, somewhat free, not too free or not at all free to practice their religion; a follow-up question asked Muslims whether they consider this “a good thing” or “a bad thing.” In 31 of the 38 countries where the question was asked, majorities of Muslims say people of other faiths can practice their religion very freely. (The question was not asked in Afghanistan.) And of those who share this assessment, overwhelming majorities consider it a good thing. This includes median percentages of more than nine-in-ten in South Asia (97%), Southern and Eastern Europe (95%), sub-Saharan Africa (94%), Southeast Asia (93%) and Central Asia (92%). In the Middle East-North Africa region, nearly as many (85%) share this view.

There are a few countries where 10% or more of Muslims say non-Muslims are either “not too free” or “not at all free” to practice their faith. These include Egypt (18%), Turkey (14%), Iraq (13%), Djibouti (11%), Tajikistan (11%) and the Palestinian territories (10%). Very few Muslims in these countries call this lack of religious freedom “a good thing.” Egypt is the only country in which more than one-tenth (12%) of the total Muslim population says it is a good thing that non-Muslims are not free to practice their faith.
​

I agree that contradicts the idea of executing those who leave Islam but then one should not apply too much logic to religious beliefs Maybe they just mean religious freedom for non-Muslims!

good point .

So ISIS or Boko Haram or Alqaeda practice Islam ? most of the Muslim believe don't agree with them, and we fought them .

I believe they (ISIS ..etc) obey extrem opinions of Wahabism and Said Kotb . so they don't practice Islam , they practiced Wahabism (takfireen). instead of obey Allah (God).


let's me enlight you in something :
if Muslims practice Islam , they would not lie or abuse or steal ....etc , so i personally perfer Muslim practice his religion , then a Muslim don't practice he had weak believe , so he may lie or steal or abuse without fearing God . do you get my point ?

 

[nazz]

good point .

So ISIS or Boko Haram or Alqaeda practice Islam ? most of the Muslim believe don't agree with them, and we fought them .

I believe they (ISIS ..etc) obey extrem opinions of Wahabism and Said Kotb . so they don't practice Islam , they practiced Wahabism (takfireen). instead of obey Allah (God).


let's me enlight you in something :
if Muslims practice Islam , they would not lie or abuse or steal ....etc , so i personally perfer Muslim practice his religion , then a Muslim don't practice he had weak believe , so he may lie or steal or abuse without fearing God . do you get my point ?

Yes, I believe so. But I think there are many versions of Islam. I'm not going to say any are illegitimate.

 

[icehorse]

Very funny indeed.
A month ago i was doing my rounds at a mental institution and my patient asked me exactly the same question.

Hi there,

Nope, I wasn't trying to be funny. Sincerely, I'd be really happy if you could tell me what moral teachings you've learned from Islam, and where in the scripture those teachings are located.

 

[LuisDantas]

That makes two of us, Icehorse.