I give up fighting Islamophobia

[Godobeyer]

I agree with you about where ISIS ideology comes from, and that they are rejected by most Muslims.

How do you feel about Al-Azhar making a statement that refuses to consider ISIS as apostates? Is it ever acceptable to declare other Muslims as apostates, or is it only for God to decide, no matter how evil you consider their actions to be?

Al-Azhar refuses to consider the Islamic State an apostate - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

good question

Because Al-Azhar don't have God guage to detect if they Muslims or not,so it's up to GOD , not to anyone .

In Islam anyone said Alshahada is a Muslim whatever his personal crime .

then IF Al-Azhar considere ISIS as apostates, they will drop in the same problem of ISIS, when ISIS considering all Muslims as apostates.

so it was a smart movecomes from Al-Azhar.

btw Al-azhar reject ISIS, they had no problem to fight them

i guess this is the view of Al-azhar , i don't know if they correct or wrong .

but i guess they should called/declare Jihad against ISIS .

 

[TashaN]

I'm throwing in the towel. I've been fighting Islamophobia since 2001 and I am about to give up. It's a steamroller that can't be stopped and it will plunge this world into a war in which even the moderates on both sides will slaughter one another. Have fun with that!

Thank you for your support all these years. Muslims have to go through this till they wake up, renew their faith, and be able to show the world what is the real Islam.

 

[Conceivia]

People often complain that I don't say thank you very often, but this is a situation when a thank you is in order. To everyone fighting against hatred, thank you very much! I hope you'll find the drive to keep at it.

I know what you mean about the frustration though.

Tony

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I was referring to this:

A majority of Muslims in most countries surveyed say they are “very free” to practice their religion. The only countries where fewer than half of Muslims say they are very free to practice their faith are Iraq (48%), Egypt (46%) and Uzbekistan (39%).

The survey also asked Muslims whether people of other faiths in their country are very free, somewhat free, not too free or not at all free to practice their religion; a follow-up question asked Muslims whether they consider this “a good thing” or “a bad thing.” In 31 of the 38 countries where the question was asked, majorities of Muslims say people of other faiths can practice their religion very freely. (The question was not asked in Afghanistan.) And of those who share this assessment, overwhelming majorities consider it a good thing. This includes median percentages of more than nine-in-ten in South Asia (97%), Southern and Eastern Europe (95%), sub-Saharan Africa (94%), Southeast Asia (93%) and Central Asia (92%). In the Middle East-North Africa region, nearly as many (85%) share this view.

There are a few countries where 10% or more of Muslims say non-Muslims are either “not too free” or “not at all free” to practice their faith. These include Egypt (18%), Turkey (14%), Iraq (13%), Djibouti (11%), Tajikistan (11%) and the Palestinian territories (10%). Very few Muslims in these countries call this lack of religious freedom “a good thing.” Egypt is the only country in which more than one-tenth (12%) of the total Muslim population says it is a good thing that non-Muslims are not free to practice their faith.
​

I agree that contradicts the idea of executing those who leave Islam but then one should not apply too much logic to religious beliefs Maybe they just mean religious freedom for non-Muslims!

One purely anecdotal caution on this...I did have an RF member explaining to me how atheists were not only free in Iran, but also had recently comprised 50% of the government.
I responded with some doubt (to put it mildly) and a bunch of information from the Iranian Constitution which suggested otherwise. How a person answers a question depends both on their motivation, and on their point of view.

 

[Sabour]

I'm throwing in the towel. I've been fighting Islamophobia since 2001 and I am about to give up. It's a steamroller that can't be stopped and it will plunge this world into a war in which even the moderates on both sides will slaughter one another. Have fun with that!

As a mulsim, I am not happy to hear that. I don't mean it personally. It is on the contrary. When a person writes a post like that it shows that you actually care. What amazed me even more is that you stated that you don't agree with islam yet you still use the term Islamphobia.

Putting the topic aside, I think you should never give up on something you believe is true, because you will always make a difference even if you can't see that. I think the real problem is in the expectations. You expect people to agree with you when they listen to your point of view but that is not always the case especially when the topic is Islamphobia.

Islamphobia will always exist, thanks to the media.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It has been a long time since I learned of Islam as, essentially, perfectly blissful existence. I don't have a source right now.

Luis i take it that its your personal definition.Hence my question is what make you think that Islam is pure perfection,undeserving of rejection and opposition?

You better not, since it was your choice to appear to blame me without any provocation, while failing to attempt to clarify why that would be relevant or what the meaning would be.

Note with the age of the internet anyone could give a proper definition of Islam and they could verify such definition through studies unless if they are lazy.

I remember asking you to more than once, after you insisted that my ignorance was shameful, so go on.

Please don't blame me because i kept repeating that knowledge is a cure for ignorance.

What you are saying is, in essence, that the Religion of Islam fails to make any distiction between religious health and submission to God's will.

That may not appear to be a flaw to you. I have to insist that it actually is a very serious flaw.

It can only appear as a flaw to one who lacks understanding of whats written.Now tell me about this serious flaw so that i can explain whats written.

Or maybe we do understand it better than we are assumed to.

In our beliefs there is absolute no room for assumptions.You either belief or disbelief.

However, the part of this paragraph of yours I have some problem with is the claim that it can never be changed. That, too, is a major flaw in and of itself. Social circunstances change. Even technological possibilities do change.

See for instance how even mobile phones can make such a significant difference in the dynamics of families and whole societies. To attempt to have the same laws in a very different society is just not wise.

Once again i cannot blame you for making ignorant statements on Islam after all you are lacking knowledge of my beliefs.Just to let you know we believe in an all knowing God.He knows the past,the present and the future.When he made his laws he knew about mobile phones before you was even born.Hoping this is not difficult for you to understand.

I don't actually believe in the existence of free will, but let's leave that aside.

May i ask why?Is there some force or being that make decisions for you or are you having difficulty in understanding free will?

resent the implication that I did. That is simply not true. I truly don't understand why you think I did.

Sorry to be frank because its within me to be frank and honest.Luis you need to read all your postings.It all has one common object and that is an anti-Islam stance.Note to be critical of my beliefs due to ignorance i will understand but to be bias is to be anti-Islam which in my opinion is resentful of my religion and gives rise to hate mongering.

Islam is a set of ideas, you are a person. As you know, I find Muhammad to be a dubious role model and I find the Quran to be a dubious moral guide. But what I'm genuinely curious about is what values you think Islam has taught you! (And I'd be curious to know how you derived those values?)

Luis you don't find this question funny.I find it extremely disrespectful and hurtful to my religion.This is what you call hate mongering that leads to Islamophobia.Note you have all right to ask questions due to ignorance but the choice of words in asking such questions actually shows the resentful thoughts in ones mind.Your mind is what you are.What you think is what you will become.If you did not find the above statement funny and disrespectful then it actually shows whats inside your mind.

I am happy for you then.

Thank you.

That has never been in doubt. Certainly not by me.

You seem to be contradicting yourself.Why the question on morality if you not in doubt?

I have been asking for such knowledge, and apparently been branded disrespectful for my troubles.

Am I to just assume that there must be reasons for the contradictions to be unreal despite the rather serious evidence that they are indeed real?

Note you can only be branded disrespectful from the manner in which you ask such question.Futher if such questions are answered and the answers are not acceptable to you then it does not mean you are right.So far as my knowledge is concerned there are no contradiction because i am seeing the religion from within.To you it may be a contradiction simply because you are on the outside.Remember you will only enjoy the sweetness of peace if you travel inside the path.At present you are outside the path throwing stones at a glass house.Hence whatever your views that you make against Islam is simply incorrect and false.

You look confused, Farouk. I half expect you to eventually find out that you are confusing me with someone else. I certainly don't see how you can possibly accuse me of making false statements.

No i am not confused.Please read your postings because its very obvious.

I can't get rid of what I do not have.

Luis You have to be very careful in your choice of words because those words leads to Islamophobia.The tongue is like a sharp knife.It kills without drawing blood.

Once again no hard-feelings.
Peace.
Note on the question of morality i require time because there is just too much barking from members in this thread and i cannot reply to all.

 

[LuisDantas]

Islamphobia will always exist, thanks to the media.

Many denouncers of Islam would agree, but for very different reasons than yours are likely to be.

I'm not sure why so many Muslims blame the media to such an extent. The media is not faking those armed attempts and terrorist actions, nor those militias. It might at worst be accused of being biased and partial, but that can only go so far.

 

[LuisDantas]

Farouk, I am taking a bit of a vacation from fully attempting to follow you - mainly because you are not earning the right for that continued effort; I am sick and tired of being the target of so much ill will - so I will ignore most of this recent post of yours and reply to this part only.

For reference, this is the original text:

Maybe we await another like Saladin.But just to let you know without morals we could never have produced saladin or Badshah Khan.

To which I answered:

That has never been in doubt. Certainly not by me.

And, oddly, you have just replied to that:

You seem to be contradicting yourself.Why the question on morality if you not in doubt?

What are you talking about? My requests (and Icehorse's) for you to talk about what the moral values of Islam are? Some of which are found in page 9 of this thread?

I give up fighting Islamophobia | Page 9 | ReligiousForums.com

How is asking about those values any indication of doubt that they exist?

 

[Sabour]

Many denouncers of Islam would agree, but for very different reasons than yours are likely to be.

I'm not sure why so many Muslims blame the media to such an extent. The media is not faking those armed attempts and terrorist actions, nor those militias. It might at worst be accused of being biased and partial, but that can only go so far.

You are right. They are not fake. However media blow things out of proportion.

I am not saying muslim terrorists dont exist, I am saying there are muslim terrorists, christian terrorists, atheist terrorists, buddihst terrorist, Hindu terrorists. This problem is not in christianity, Islam or hinduism, the problem is the motives of people.However, the only focus is on the terrorist acts of muslims and they get the coverage 24 hours a day. The media made the people automatically think of a muslim when the word "terrorist" is mentioned. Meanwhile media ofcourse doesn't care about what happens in "Burma" for example. Because a muslim saying " Allah Akbar" (meaning God is the Greatest) is much more brutal.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Morality in Islam from the Noble Quraan.
For the ignorant please read what i present to you with understanding.
The Noble Quraan has 7 inner meanings and for the ignorant its way beyond your intellectual capacity to even understand what i am saying.Nontheless i am going to come down to your level and present it as simple as possible.
The minimum moral code that God Almighty wants us to follow is in the ff verse of the Noble Quraan.
The verse is called "Surat Al-'An'am"
It is listed as verse 6 in the Noble Quraan.
There is your link below.
Surat Al-'An`am - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

Note before clicking on this link go and take a bathe and thereafter ask God almighty to give you guidance so that you could understand his message with true understanding.
To those that do not believe in the existence of God the least you could do is take a bathe.
This verse address you the atheist and it gives the minimum moral code that God Almighty wishes its followers to act on.
Once again minimum moral code of conduct so read with understanding.
Peace and hope you gain some knowledge.

 

[LuisDantas]

You are right. They are not fake. However media blow things out of proportion.

I am not saying muslim terrorists dont exist, I am saying there are muslim terrorists, christian terrorists, atheist terrorists, buddihst terrorist, Hindu terrorists. This problem is not in christianity, Islam or hinduism, the problem is the motives of people.However, the only focus is on the terrorist acts of muslims and they get the coverage 24 hours a day. The media made the people automatically think of a muslim when the word "terrorist" is mentioned. Meanwhile media ofcourse doesn't care about what happens in "Burma" for example. Because a muslim saying " Allah Akbar" (meaning God is the Greatest) is much more brutal.

You know, 0ne-answer, you got me thinking. Might it be that the media is not significantly biased in this respect, and you are working under the assumption that there is no inherent affinity between Muslims and terrorism, and therefore the apperances to the contrary must be due to the media picking and choosing to give an unjustified impression?

That troubles me if that is what you believe. Because there is no way you may be right. Terrorism requires a certain mindset and some sort of cause. The media may well be motivated towards twisting the perception of both the terrorism proper, as well as of the mindset and the cause, but it can only go so far in hiding the existence of those mindsets and causes. People learn of things from their friends and neighbors. Terrorists have names, live in communities. Their existence leaves a trace.

The media is just not capable of anything approaching such an impressively, even supernaturally complete cover-up.

 

[Sabour]

You know, 0ne-answer, you got me thinking. Might it be that the media is not significantly biased in this respect, and you are working under the assumption that there is no inherent affinity between Muslims and terrorism, and therefore the apperances to the contrary must be due to the media picking and choosing to give an unjustified impression?

That troubles me if that is what you believe. Because there is no way you may be right. Terrorism requires a certain mindset and some sort of cause. The media may well be motivated towards twisting the perception of both the terrorism proper, as well as of the mindset and the cause, but it can only go so far in hiding the existence of those mindsets and causes. People learn of things from their friends and neighbors. Terrorists have names, live in communities. Their existence leaves a trace.

The media is just not capable of anything approaching such an impressively, even supernaturally complete cover-up.

When it comes to talking about Islam, I don't work under an assumption because am familiar with it. I work based on what I know Islam is. The possibility that I may be wrong about the true nature of Islam is very low considering that I live in a muslim area where muslims can't even grow their beard because they might go to jail for doing that. However, I know that the possibility that I am wrong for you is very high. But for what it is worth, I assure you there is no link between what terrorism and what Islam teaches.

However, I admit that I may be wrong about the media. Perhaps they do cover other terrorism acts not initiated by called muslims. But so far I didn't see that happening.

I would say that it is not covered up. I would say keep an eye on the news and notice when the term "terrorist" is used. You will find it behind or after any muslim event. Yet they are not used in more brutal events. Here is an example

 

[LuisDantas]

@faroukfarouk : I just don't understand your behavior.

We are just asking you to talk about the moral values you learned from the Quraan. And you find the need to attempt to insult me for that?

Surat 6, named "Cattle" in English or Surat Al-'An`am - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم in your post, says quite a lot about the importance of belief in God. It is also one of the longest in the Quraan, yet it seems to have little if any in the way of moral teachings.

Have you perhaps mentioned the wrong Surat by mistake?

 

[Smart_Guy]

View attachment 7999

+99999999 etc. likes.

 

[serp777]

I laugh at the fact that OP implies that militant Islamists would have a fighting chance if they decided to go on a violent offensive, or Jihad if you will, in response to Islamophobia. It would be pure, unadulterated genocide. (This would be in the case where terrorists struck the US or an ally with a nuclear weapon or dirty bomb). The United States could wipe out the entire middle east faster than they could say Allah Akbar. And nowhere near a majority of Muslims would become violent, so you're basically looking at disgruntled terrorist cells. As technology improves the US will continue wiping the terrorist scum from the face earth. Predator drones have probably killed thousands of Muslims connected to terrorist activity. There were innocents which is unfortunate, but if you provoke the US enough, eventually they will stop caring about collateral damage.

Terrorists can kill thousands of people but all it does is provoke a sleep bear.

 

[LuisDantas]

But for what it is worth, I assure you there is no link between what terrorism and what Islam teaches.

I'm afraid that this a very bold statement, one that I don't expect to ever fully believe.

What is your understanding of, say, the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie?

Iranian mullah revives death fatwa against Salman Rushdie over Satanic Verses | Daily Mail Online

Is it not related to what Islam teaches and a direct, unambiguous encouragement to terrorism?

Are you asking me to disconsider it because it is very atypical of Islamic thought (despite having been supported in no unclear terms by at least two different Islamic clerics separated by over two decades)?

However, I admit that I may be wrong about the media. Perhaps they do cover other terrorism acts not initiated by called muslims. But so far I didn't see that happening.

There are (or have been) terrorist groups that are fairly well covered in the media that have never been suspect of Islamic influence or even of significative Muslim membership - for instance, the Sendero Luminoso, the Khmer Rouge, the Irish Revolutionary Army, Aum Shinrikyo.

Most of those however have clear political motivations and only secondary or absent religious motivations. Aum Shinrikyo followed a bastardized misinterpretation of Buddhism, though. Christianity-motivated violence tends to target LGBT people and abortion clinics (or, in the past, ethnic minorities). It is rather difficult to tell Shinto from Japan itself. To the extent that India's conflicts show religious motivation, it is clearly as a response to Muslim proselitism.

At the end of the day, there is simply nothing in the world quite comparable to the insistence of so many terrorists in claiming to be fulfilling the desire of the God of the Quran.

Blaming the media for that perception... well, that is just not likely to end up convincing me. I put a lot of effort in keeping informed about those matters and it is all but completely unbelievable that my information might be that much skewed in disfavor of Islam.

I would say that it is not covered up. I would say keep an eye on the news and notice when the term "terrorist" is used. You will find it behind or after any muslim event. Yet they are not used in more brutal events. Here is an example

I am very aware of those specific events. I fail to see your point.

 

[serp777]

Also being an Islamiphobic is no worse than being a republicanophobic. Islam should not be treated any differently.

Islam tends to not be able to take criticism well or at all. Any negative comments are suggested to be ignorant and or racist. Islam is a religion that deserves some of the most criticism since it is currently one of the least benign.

 

[Sabour]

I'm afraid that this a very bold statement, one that I don't expect to ever fully believe.

What is your understanding of, say, the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie?

Iranian mullah revives death fatwa against Salman Rushdie over Satanic Verses | Daily Mail Online

Is it not related to what Islam teaches and a direct, unambiguous encouragement to terrorism?

Are you asking me to disconsider it because it is very atypical of Islamic thought (despite having been supported in no unclear terms by at least two different Islamic clerics separated by over two decades)?

TBH I am not sure I can give you a correct Islamic answer to that as I don't know what is the correct response we should take as muslims and that is due to my lack of knowledge of what the books says also.

SO if you are asking what is the correct Islamic response that should be taken, I would say I don't know.

However if I were to give my opinion (which may not be correct), I would say that since there is no true Islamic caliphate and Islam is misrepresented, I think that any ruling in that sense can't be taken. ( again I may be wrong)

I know that something should be done regarding that, but I don't know what it is.

I am not asking you to disconsider anything. I would ask you to take a comprehensive look at things and taking information from different sources.

I believe people should not mock my religion, but I don't know what the response should be if that happened. I have no stand on the link you have provided.

Most of those however have clear political motivations and only secondary or absent religious motivations.

Actually that is the other side of the coin. Whenever a muslim is involved in anything, it is because of Islam, even if he was attempting to steal are spoon.

Blaming the media for that perception... well, that is just not likely to end up convincing me. I put a lot of effort in keeping informed about those matters and it is all but completely unbelievable that my information might be that much skewed in disfavor of Islam.

I am not here to convince you. I am here on the RF to say the things I see and believe I know. Like you, I don't believe I am wrong. But for sure we are not both right and here is the dilemma.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I just don't understand your behavior.
We are just asking you to talk about the moral values you learned from the Quraan. And you find the need to attempt to insult me for that?

What behavior and insult you talking about?
Please enlighten me.

Surat 6, named "Cattle" in English or Surat Al-'An`am - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم in your post, says quite a lot about the importance of belief in God. It is also one of the longest in the Quraan, yet it seems to have little if any in the way of moral teachings.

You not insinuating that the verse "The Cattle" is being addressed to the cattle.Are you?

Have you perhaps mentioned the wrong Surat by mistake?

I did say that it teaches the minimum moral code conduct.
iIts definately the right verse.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sorry, Farouk, but I just don't see actual moral teachings in that Sura.

I don't consider belief in God a moral value. Maybe that is the matter?

What do you learn from that Sura? Something like gratitude, perhaps? Solidarity? Hospitality?