I give up fighting Islamophobia

[faroukfarouk]

Sorry, Farouk, but I just don't see actual moral teachings in that Sura.

I don't consider belief in God a moral value. Maybe that is the matter?

What do you learn from that Sura? Something like gratitude, perhaps? Solidarity? Hospitality?

LuisDantas
Its quite sad that you not see what i see.Now there has to be a reason for that.
Tell me did you ff my instructions.I did say take a bathe before clicking on to that link and there was a reason why asked you to bathe.
Now tell me honestly is there not a single moral teaching from that Sura?
There has to be an answer.While i look for an answer please study that verse again.

 

[icehorse]

Hi farouk,

I said:

Islam is a set of ideas, you are a person. As you know, I find Muhammad to be a dubious role model and I find the Quran to be a dubious moral guide. But what I'm genuinely curious about is what values you think Islam has taught you! (And I'd be curious to know how you derived those values?)

you said:

Luis you don't find this question funny.I find it extremely disrespectful and hurtful to my religion.This is what you call hate mongering that leads to Islamophobia.Note you have all right to ask questions due to ignorance but the choice of words in asking such questions actually shows the resentful thoughts in ones mind.Your mind is what you are.What you think is what you will become.If you did not find the above statement funny and disrespectful then it actually shows whats inside your mind.

farouk, I don't claim to be an Islamic scholar. On the other hand, I've read the Quran, and I've studied three different translations. I've read a complete, extremely apologetic biography of Muhammad, and I've read many other articles concerning Muhammad. I've listened to many debates between secularists and top Islamic scholars. And, finally, over the last couple of years I've asked Muslims over and over again to explain exactly what they think Islam teaches them, and where exactly in the scripture those lessons are taught.

So, my comments are not based on ignorance. They are based on literally hundreds of hours of study.

 

[viole]

As a mulsim, I am not happy to hear that. I don't mean it personally. It is on the contrary. When a person writes a post like that it shows that you actually care. What amazed me even more is that you stated that you don't agree with islam yet you still use the term Islamphobia.

Putting the topic aside, I think you should never give up on something you believe is true, because you will always make a difference even if you can't see that. I think the real problem is in the expectations. You expect people to agree with you when they listen to your point of view but that is not always the case especially when the topic is Islamphobia.

Islamphobia will always exist, thanks to the media.

Do you have something agaist the media?

Ciao

- viole

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi farouk,

I said:

you said:

farouk, I don't claim to be an Islamic scholar. On the other hand, I've read the Quran, and I've studied three different translations. I've read a complete, extremely apologetic biography of Muhammad, and I've read many other articles concerning Muhammad. I've listened to many debates between secularists and top Islamic scholars. And, finally, over the last couple of years I've asked Muslims over and over again to explain exactly what they think Islam teaches them, and where exactly in the scripture those lessons are taught.

So, my comments are not based on ignorance. They are based on literally hundreds of hours of study.

icehorse
I have given you a verse to study .Inside this verse is a minimum moral code of conduct that God Almighty is asking of his followers.
Note can you just name one while i try to find an answer as to why you cannot see any moral teachings.well i hope you took a bathe before studying.
FYI i have only just started to answer your question today and if you cannot find any moral teachings on this simple verse then believe me you going to find it very difficult to understand and follow what i am going to present to you on my next verse.
Now keep studying because if your intent is good then you never know God may just give you guidance to your answers.

 

[icehorse]

Morality in Islam from the Noble Quraan.
For the ignorant please read what i present to you with understanding.
The Noble Quraan has 7 inner meanings and for the ignorant its way beyond your intellectual capacity to even understand what i am saying.Nontheless i am going to come down to your level and present it as simple as possible.
The minimum moral code that God Almighty wants us to follow is in the ff verse of the Noble Quraan.
The verse is called "Surat Al-'An'am"
It is listed as verse 6 in the Noble Quraan.
There is your link below.
Surat Al-'An`am - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

Note before clicking on this link go and take a bathe and thereafter ask God almighty to give you guidance so that you could understand his message with true understanding.
To those that do not believe in the existence of God the least you could do is take a bathe.
This verse address you the atheist and it gives the minimum moral code that God Almighty wishes its followers to act on.
Once again minimum moral code of conduct so read with understanding.
Peace and hope you gain some knowledge.

Hi farouk,

A couple of things before we get started:

1 - I have not made any personal attacks against you. I have commented on the ideas of Islam. It is you who decided to begin with personal attacks by attacking my "intellectual capacity". Related to this is that you are conflating intellect with ignorance. These are two very different ideas. The smartest man in the world is ignorant of many things. Do you understand the difference?

2 - Second, simplification is a high level skill. It is a sign of respect to take the time to make your communications clear. So yes, please do take the time to communicate clearly, and I will do my best to communicate clearly to you.

3 - Do you really mean for us to summarize the entirety of Surah 6? In my translation it has 165 verses spanning many pages. If so, ok, but I want to make sure that you didn't mean for us to focus on only some of the verses in the Surah.

Finally, I will summarize my understanding of this Surah (6), down to a paragraph or two. Will you commit to doing the same?

 

[Sabour]

Do you have something agaist the media?

Ciao

- viole

I am not a fan. I think it is corrupted. Actually, I would say I know it is corrupted ...

 

[faroukfarouk]

Icehorse

1 - I have not made any personal attacks against you. I have commented on the ideas of Islam. It is you who decided to begin with personal attacks by attacking my "intellectual capacity". Related to this is that you are conflating intellect with ignorance. These are two very different ideas. The smartest man in the world is ignorant of many things. Do you understand the difference?

There was no personal attack.You totally misunderstood what i said.Your ideas of Islam is false simply because of your ignorance of my beliefs.Knowledge is the cure for ignorance.
So far as "intellectual capacity" is concerned you have totally misunderstood what i meant.Let me repeat in simple words.The Noble Quraan has 7 inner meanings.Those, like yourself, who shows complete ignorance of my beliefs and also those who lack the skill of studying the Noble Quraan will never be able to understand the inner meaning.Those inner meaning will only be understood by those that are skilled in finding the inner meanings.Note i also do not have that skill but i sit in the company of those who have such skills and as such i gain knowledge from them.One such person who had such skills was Salahuddin Ayubi.

2 - Second, simplification is a high level skill. It is a sign of respect to take the time to make your communications clear. So yes, please do take the time to communicate clearly, and I will do my best to communicate clearly to you.

So far as communication is concerned if you are not sure on what i am saying then please let me know so that i could simplify my statement.So far as respect is concerned you have to earn it through your choice of words.If you use insulting and hateful words in your questioning then don't expect anyone to respect you.Keep in mind that we discussing other people beliefs hence be sensitive on your choice of words.

3 - Do you really mean for us to summarize the entirety of Surah 6? In my translation it has 165 verses spanning many pages. If so, ok, but I want to make sure that you didn't mean for us to focus on only some of the verses in the Surah.

This is a short Surah and if you wish to gain knowledge on morality from the Noble Quraan then i did very clearly state that it teaches the minimum moral code of conduct that God Almighty demands from its followers.

Finally, I will summarize my understanding of this Surah (6), down to a paragraph or two. Will you commit to doing the same?

Note i have the knowledge already hence there is no need for me to commit to anything.The Surah is beneficial for those that wish to alleviate their ignorance.

Peace and no ill-feelings.

 

[icehorse]

Hi farouk,

Ok, I'm understanding your comments more now. But I still think you're blending the meanings of important words here. Now you've introduced "skill" into the discussion. A skill can be learned.

Anyway...

I've heard from other Muslims the idea that there are skilled Islamic scholars who understand things like "7 inner meanings". For the sake of discussion, let's say that's true. Isn't also the case, that there is no central authority in Islam? And isn't it also the case that politics is built in to Islam?

Putting these three elements together is a recipe for the kinds of disasters we're seeing all over the Islamic world today.

We have individual Islamic groups, each convinced that "they" have the correct understanding of Islam. And, for many of these groups part of that understanding is that a key message in Islam is that non-believers must be converted, subjugated, or killed.

So, if your mentors extract peaceful messages and good morals from the scripture, hooray, that's a ray of hope. But it doesn't resolve the bigger problem. For over a thousand years, millions of Muslims have studied the scripture and taken away intolerant and violent instructions. And there is NO authority who can convincingly say that you, farouk, are correct, and that a group like Boko Haram is incorrect.

Personally, I want a tolerant, peaceful, secular world for my daughters to live in. In my studies of Islam, I'm afraid to say that the simplest, most direct reading of the scripture will lead many, many people to take the views of groups like Boko Haram or ISIS.

I know you'll say that these violent groups have the wrong message. But you have no authority to say so, and your scripture isn't your best friend in this regard.

 

[viole]

I am not a fan. I think it is corrupted. Actually, I would say I know it is corrupted ...

Well, of course you are not.

But how do you know they are corrupted? Do you work for the media?

Ciao

- viole

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi farouk,

Ok, I'm understanding your comments more now. But I still think you're blending the meanings of important words here. Now you've introduced "skill" into the discussion. A skill can be learned.

Anyway...

I've heard from other Muslims the idea that there are skilled Islamic scholars who understand things like "7 inner meanings". For the sake of discussion, let's say that's true. Isn't also the case, that there is no central authority in Islam? And isn't it also the case that politics is built in to Islam?

Putting these three elements together is a recipe for the kinds of disasters we're seeing all over the Islamic world today.

We have individual Islamic groups, each convinced that "they" have the correct understanding of Islam. And, for many of these groups part of that understanding is that a key message in Islam is that non-believers must be converted, subjugated, or killed.

So, if your mentors extract peaceful messages and good morals from the scripture, hooray, that's a ray of hope. But it doesn't resolve the bigger problem. For over a thousand years, millions of Muslims have studied the scripture and taken away intolerant and violent instructions. And there is NO authority who can convincingly say that you, farouk, are correct, and that a group like Boko Haram is incorrect.

Personally, I want a tolerant, peaceful, secular world for my daughters to live in. In my studies of Islam, I'm afraid to say that the simplest, most direct reading of the scripture will lead many, many people to take the views of groups like Boko Haram or ISIS.

I know you'll say that these violent groups have the wrong message. But you have no authority to say so, and your scripture isn't your best friend in this regard.

in

icehorse
Prophecies are prophecies and thats a subject on its own.
We Muslims number +1,6 billion rising by the day in the World today.
Now tell me take Boko Haram+ISIS together.
What percentage does both these groups represent from the total Muslim population?

 

[icehorse]

in

icehorse
Prophecies are prophecies and thats a subject on its own.
We Muslims number +1,6 billion rising by the day in the World today.
Now tell me take Boko Haram+ISIS together.
What percentage does both these groups represent from the total Muslim population?

I would agree that there are very few terrorists. But there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who think that Sharia should be the law of the land. That amounts to theocracy, and theocracy is a bad, bad idea.

 

[gsa]

in

icehorse
Prophecies are prophecies and thats a subject on its own.
We Muslims number +1,6 billion rising by the day in the World today.
Now tell me take Boko Haram+ISIS together.
What percentage does both these groups represent from the total Muslim population?

Well the survey data shows that Muslim support for terrorist actions against civilians is NOW a minority position (not always the case), but the same or similar surveys also show that the percentage of Muslims who believe apostates and homosexuals should be executed, for example, is quite high. Hundreds of millions. So it would appear that a majority of the ummah holds radical beliefs incompatible with any meaningful concept of liberal democracy and human rights. ISIS and Boko Haram are pretty low standards to hold them to.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I would agree that there are very few terrorists. But there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who think that Sharia should be the law of the land. That amounts to theocracy, and theocracy is a bad, bad idea.

icehorse
If you can a knock at your door in the next few days and you see a man wearing a big bead with a long muslim garb then don't be afraid and hide your daughters under the bed because its me and i promise you i am no terrorist.
Tell me honestly why do you fear theocracy?or what makes it bad?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Well the survey data shows that Muslim support for terrorist actions against civilians is NOW a minority position (not always the case), but the same or similar surveys also show that the percentage of Muslims who believe apostates and homosexuals should be executed, for example, is quite high. Hundreds of millions. So it would appear that a majority of the ummah holds radical beliefs incompatible with any meaningful concept of liberal democracy and human rights. ISIS and Boko Haram are pretty low standards to hold them to.

You sound like you a member of ISIS.Are you?

 

[gsa]

You sound like you a member of ISIS.Are you?

What makes me sound like a member of ISIS? My description of Pew surveys?

 

[gsa]

You sound like you a member of ISIS.Are you?

If you mean this version of ISIS, being the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society, I am not a member, but I strongly support their efforts. Who wouldn't support this? From their declaration:

We are secular Muslims, and secular persons of Muslim societies. We are believers, doubters, and unbelievers, brought together by a great struggle, not between the West and Islam, but between the free and the unfree.


We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We believe in the equality of all human persons.


We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the observance of universal human rights.


We find traditions of liberty, rationality, and tolerance in the rich histories of pre-Islamic and Islamic societies. These values do not belong to the West or the East; they are the common moral heritage of humankind.


We see no colonialism, racism, or so-called "Islamaphobia" in submitting Islamic practices to criticism or condemnation when they violate human reason or rights.

 

[icehorse]

icehorse
If you can a knock at your door in the next few days and you see a man wearing a big bead with a long muslim garb then don't be afraid and hide your daughters under the bed because its me and i promise you i am no terrorist.
Tell me honestly why do you fear theocracy?or what makes it bad?

Hi farouk,

Thanks for having such an open conversation! Well history shows us that theorcracies are intolerant. Thery are intolerant of minorities, women, gays, Jews, and other religions. Experience shows us that if we really want people to be free to choose their religion, we need a secular state.

 

[Godobeyer]

Hi farouk,

Thanks for having such an open conversation! Well history shows us that theorcracies are intolerant. Thery are intolerant of minorities, women, gays, Jews, and other religions. Experience shows us that if we really want people to be free to choose their religion, we need a secular state.

Islam waranty the rights of minorities religions in Muslim countries , so some regimes/group of people don't respect Sharia by protect and give the rights to other religions .

I think Sharia is used to be practice with ONLY with Muslims , non-Muslims had their justice law and traditions juridical .


there is no different between Muslim or non-Muslim in Justice/court or freedom of religion in Muslim countries.

 

[gsa]

Islam waranty the rights of minorities religions in Muslim countries , so some regimes/group of people don't respect Sharia by protect and give the rights to other religions .

I think Sharia is used to be practice with ONLY with Muslims , non-Muslims had their justice law and traditions juridical .


there is no different between Muslim or non-Muslim in Justice/court or freedom of religion in Muslim countries.

This is interesting: According to the Library of Congress, Algeria, to use an example that you are probably familiar with, "makes proselytizing by non-Muslims an offense punishable by a fine and up to five years’ imprisonment," and "provides that any individual who insults the prophet and the messengers of God, or denigrates the creed or prophets of Islam through writing, drawing, declaration, or any other means, will receive three to five years in prison, and/or be subject to a fine of between 50,000 and 100,000 Algerian dinars." Notably, there is no prohibition on proselytizing by Muslims or any prohibition on insulting Christian, Jewish or other minority religious sensibilities.

Is this information incorrect? And this is just one example. There are many others.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Godo,

Well there is "theory" and then there is what seems to happen in reality. From what I understand, non-Muslims in modern Muslim majority countries tend to leave or be forced out. This is happening to Christians all over the ME and it certainly happened in Turkey.