I give up fighting Islamophobia

[nazz]

That makes two of us, Icehorse.

You guys seriously think Islam does not contain ethical teachings?

 

[LuisDantas]

You guys seriously think Islam does not contain ethical teachings?

Oh, no, that is not at all what I think.

I do however have a lot of trouble getting straight answers about what they are. It is actually easier to attempt to deduce them myself. They seem to involve valuing hospitality, family, loyalty and dedication to one's loved ones.

Somewhat less certain, but still apparently part of the deal are an appreciation of stability and mutual responsibility, a taste for tradition, and a willingness to sacrifice personal confort for the common good.

I really wonder why it is so hard to simply tell us about that and quote some Quran verses. Come to think of it, I will attempt to do so myself. Gimme a minute.

 

[LuisDantas]

Actually, it has been done already:

Dwindling In Unbelief: The Good Stuff in the Quran: A summary

 

[LuisDantas]

You guys seriously think Islam does not contain ethical teachings?

Anyway, Nazz, I can't speak for Icehorse, but I do want Farouk's answer because I truly wonder how his mind assimilates the Quran's teachings. Particularly given post #124.

Also, I am personally very motivated in studying religious teachings and depurating them from appeals to believe in God. The Quran is a particularly difficult challenge in that regard. It seems to sincerely believe that the two matters are somehow one and the same.

 

[icehorse]

Actually, it has been done already:

Dwindling In Unbelief: The Good Stuff in the Quran: A summary

This list seems accurate. A couple of things to notice though...

- You need to do a LOT of editing to favor those passages over the contradictory passages.
- The list hardly seems revolutionary. Humans would never have made it off the savanna if we hadn't derived those ideas hundreds of thousands of years before the Quran was written.

Now to be fair, I don't consider the Bible to be any more meaningful when if comes to moral and ethical teachings.

 

[LuisDantas]

It does seem a bit clearer, though. The high lirism of the Quran comes with a price.

Also, the Bible does have some teachings that are fairly easy to understand and even to fully embrace without making a point of believing in God first.

 

[Smart_Guy]

You're the one that chooses to take offense at that. I couldn't care less what people say about lion avatars. It means absolutely nothing to me.

Well, there is a difference between being offended and not wanting something.

People are also different in how they look to their dignity. Just in case you haven't noticed, I'm talking about things that could harm me as a human generally, and a Muslim specifically, not about criticism. Otherwise I wouldn't have accepted what other members said about seeing Islam dubious, isn't true, oppressive... etc. I instead accepted those thoughts as opinions and views and respected them and those stating them.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Anyway, Nazz, I can't speak for Icehorse, but I do want Farouk's answer because I truly wonder how his mind assimilates the Quran's teachings. Particularly given post #124.

Also, I am personally very motivated in studying religious teachings and depurating them from appeals to believe in God. The Quran is a particularly difficult challenge in that regard. It seems to sincerely believe that the two matters are somehow one and the same.

LuisDantas
Tell me honestly.
Why do you hate Islam?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi there,

Nope, I wasn't trying to be funny. Sincerely, I'd be really happy if you could tell me what moral teachings you've learned from Islam, and where in the scripture those teachings are located.

icehorse
You are serious.
Can you define the word "moral".

 

[LuisDantas]

LuisDantas
Tell me honestly.
Why do you hate Islam?

In its purest sense, I couldn't possibly hate Islam, of course. Islam is defined as pure perfection, undeserving of rejection or opposition. In case I am misinterpreting the word, you are still very much welcome to attempt to explain me why.

The religion that is associated with that name, though, is just too theistic for me to seriously consider or recommend for anyone.

Religions are supposed to be useful. To lead people into developing moral virtue, wisdom, a sense of community, mutual respect and support.

Islam, it seems, is sometimes capable of producing the likes of Saladin and Badshah Khan, but so much more often ends up creating an obsession with praising God and submission to the general preferences of one's community at the expense of self-honesty, of respect for individual thought. Sometimes it seems to nibble at one's capability of logical abstract thought, even. There is little else to explain the lack of regard for so many obvious contradictions, so little effort at explaining what is actually meant by a lack of compulsion in religion, by the adequacy of each people having their own religion, by the idea that Islam was made by God for all people (including atheists, apparently, despite them just not quite being real peole at the same time).

Islam, quite simply, seems to have largely failed its adherents and to be now lost in self-delusion, obscurantism, paranoia conspiracies and desperate attempts at believing that everything will end up well as long as people keep their faith in God and the Quran.

I do not hate Islam. But I sure do hate the disrespectful insistence of so many on making it so congruous with that depressing scenario that I perceive it as associated with Islam these days. I can't very well feel a lot of respect for the attitude of insisting that I should gloss over very real problems and just read the Quran so that the Word of God will cure me from my materialistic atheism and fill my heart with the desire to submit to His Will. Truth be told, I don't think anyone should.

It is way past time for people of all faiths to accept and embrace the rather obvious fact that it is the good will and wisdom of people that lend religions their worth and power, not the other way around. That belief in God is a legitimate yet optional and peripheral component of religions. And that respect for other people involves attempting to understand and communicate with them fruitfully, not branding them as foreigners and leaving it at that.

 

[icehorse]

What Luis said.

Plus, my request still stands. What moral teachings do Muslims get from the scripture, where in the scripture do they find them, and how do they know to disregard the parts that contradict the "good" parts?

 

[faroukfarouk]

What Luis said.

Plus, my request still stands. What moral teachings do Muslims get from the scripture, where in the scripture do they find them, and how do they know to disregard the parts that contradict the "good" parts?

Firstly you have to define the word "moral".

 

[LuisDantas]

Moral teachings are those that relate to one's higher goals and values, those that define and specify virtues worth pursuing. Those who involve such concepts as honor, duty, responsibility, love, motivation, ethics, ultimate purposes and give some guidance about how to make choices that may involve helping, protecting or harming other people or ourselves.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Thank you for your reply.

In its purest sense, I couldn't possibly hate Islam, of course. Islam is defined as pure perfection, undeserving of rejection or opposition. In case I am misinterpreting the word, you are still very much welcome to attempt to explain me why.

Well a second attempt and you still get it wrong.
May i ask where did you get that definition of Islam from?
Is that your personal definition or do you have a source?
I am just curious.
Note I don’t blame you for your ignorance but let me define it for you.
In the Noble Quraan the word appears as "Alislama".In English The Islam/the commitment to Allah.
The root is S-L-M and it means dissociation from an entity to re-associate with another that is better.This carries the meaning of health and safety.It also carries the meaning of delivery from one to another and it carries the meaning of peace,since it is the dissociation from harm to peace.Hence you cannot associate the word violence with Islam because it sounds stupid.If you say Islam is violent then what you actually saying is peace is violent.Alislama is the committing to the better entity and that is the commitment to God.The Arabic word for God is Allah.In a religious context it simply means complete submission to the will of God.This complete submission to the will of God is what non-muslims fail to understand.The shariah laws are from God and its in existenance from the time of the Prophet and it can never be changed.These are Gods laws and if we change these laws then we will not be submitting to the will of God.Our religion is based on a “way of life”.This way of life teaches us our morals.How to eat,how to sleep,how to cleanse ourself in the loo,what to eat and what is forbidden to consume,how to wear our clothes,how to take a bathe,…..and the list goes on and on.
Simply put it it teaches us how to conduct ourselves from the time we get out of bed till we get back into bed again.A complete “way of life”.

The religion that is associated with that name, though, is just too theistic for me to seriously consider or recommend for anyone.

You have free will to chose your own religion.Every human has an intellect and with reasoning he can make his own decision.I am happy with my religion.But i don't see why anyone should demonise my beliefs because i regard that has hate.

Religions are supposed to be useful. To lead people into developing moral virtue, wisdom, a sense of community, mutual respect and support.

Totally agree with you.That is exactly what Islam has done for me.Note this is a very lengthy subject especially if i have to start talking to you about the community projects that i am personally involved in.Whats more my family is also involved in international community work and we serve all irrespective of religion.Too lengthy and not going to brag about it.

Islam, it seems, is sometimes capable of producing the likes of Saladin and Badshah Khan, but so much more often ends up creating an obsession with praising God and submission to the general preferences of one's community at the expense of self-honesty, of respect for individual thought. Sometimes it seems to nibble at one's capability of logical abstract thought, even. There is little else to explain the lack of regard for so many obvious contradictions, so little effort at explaining what is actually meant by a lack of compulsion in religion, by the adequacy of each people having their own religion, by the idea that Islam was made by God for all people (including atheists, apparently, despite them just not quite being real peole at the same time).

Maybe we await another like Saladin.But just to let you know without morals we could never have produced saladin or Badshah Khan.So far as contradictions are concerned its lack of knowledge on yourside.

I do not hate Islam. But I sure do hate the disrespectful insistence of so many on making it so congruous with that depressing scenario that I perceive it as associated with Islam these days. I can't very well feel a lot of respect for the attitude of insisting that I should gloss over very real problems and just read the Quran so that the Word of God will cure me from my materialistic atheism and fill my heart with the desire to submit to His Will. Truth be told, I don't think anyone should.

So far as hate is concerned i hope you are honest because your postings suggest otherwise.I agree with you so far as insistence on reading the Noble Quraan is concerned.You have your religion and you are happy with your belief.Therefore there is no need to be critical of others expecially if you are ignorant of their true beliefs.Making false statements is equal to hate remarks.

t is way past time for people of all faiths to accept and embrace the rather obvious fact that it is the good will and wisdom of people that lend religions their worth and power, not the other way around. That belief in God is a legitimate yet optional and peripheral component of religions. And that respect for other people involves attempting to understand and communicate with them fruitfully, not branding them as foreigners and leaving it at that.

In total agreement.
PS there are 3 things that cannot remain hidden for long.
1.the sun.
2.the moon.
3.the truth.
The truth is what hurts and if you wish to find peace then free your self of resentful Islamic thoughts.
Peace and no ill feelings will present your Islamic moral teachings tomorrow.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well a second attempt and you still get it wrong.
May i ask where did you get that definition of Islam from?
Is that your personal definition or do you have a source?
I am just curious.

It has been a long time since I learned of Islam as, essentially, perfectly blissful existence. I don't have a source right now.

Note I don’t blame you for your ignorance

You better not, since it was your choice to appear to blame me without any provocation, while failing to attempt to clarify why that would be relevant or what the meaning would be.

but let me define it for you.

I remember asking you to more than once, after you insisted that my ignorance was shameful, so go on.

In the Noble Quraan the word appears as "Alislama". In English The Islam/the commitment to Allah.
The root is S-L-M and it means dissociation from an entity to re-associate with another that is better. This carries the meaning of health and safety.It also carries the meaning of delivery from one to another and it carries the meaning of peace,since it is the dissociation from harm to peace.Hence you cannot associate the word violence with Islam because it sounds stupid.If you say Islam is violent then what you actually saying is peace is violent.Alislama is the committing to the better entity and that is the commitment to God.The Arabic word for God is Allah.

What you are saying is, in essence, that the Religion of Islam fails to make any distiction between religious health and submission to God's will.

That may not appear to be a flaw to you. I have to insist that it actually is a very serious flaw.

In a religious context it simply means complete submission to the will of God.This complete submission to the will of God is what non-muslims fail to understand.

Or maybe we do understand it better than we are assumed to.

The shariah laws are from God and its in existenance from the time of the Prophet and it can never be changed.These are Gods laws and if we change these laws then we will not be submitting to the will of God.Our religion is based on a “way of life”. This way of life teaches us our morals.How to eat,how to sleep,how to cleanse ourself in the loo,what to eat and what is forbidden to consume,how to wear our clothes,how to take a bathe,…..and the list goes on and on.
Simply put it it teaches us how to conduct ourselves from the time we get out of bed till we get back into bed again.A complete “way of life”.

I, of course, don't believe that there is a God to offer the Shariah laws, but that is just a minor detail. The laws will be what they are, regardless of their origin, and should be judged for their actual merits, not their purported origin.

However, the part of this paragraph of yours I have some problem with is the claim that it can never be changed. That, too, is a major flaw in and of itself. Social circunstances change. Even technological possibilities do change.

See for instance how even mobile phones can make such a significant difference in the dynamics of families and whole societies. To attempt to have the same laws in a very different society is just not wise.

You have free will to chose your own religion.

I don't actually believe in the existence of free will, but let's leave that aside.

Every human has an intellect and with reasoning he can make his own decision.I am happy with my religion.But i don't see why anyone should demonise my beliefs because i regard that has hate.

I resent the implication that I did. That is simply not true. I truly don't understand why you think I did.

Totally agree with you.That is exactly what Islam has done for me.Note this is a very lengthy subject especially if i have to start talking to you about the community projects that i am personally involved in.Whats more my family is also involved in international community work and we serve all irrespective of religion.Too lengthy and not going to brag about it.

I am happy for you then.

Maybe we await another like Saladin.But just to let you know without morals we could never have produced saladin or Badshah Khan.

That has never been in doubt. Certainly not by me.

So far as contradictions are concerned its lack of knowledge on yourside.

I have been asking for such knowledge, and apparently been branded disrespectful for my troubles.

Am I to just assume that there must be reasons for the contradictions to be unreal despite the rather serious evidence that they are indeed real?

So far as hate is concerned i hope you are honest because your postings suggest otherwise.

What? How can you say such a thing?

I agree with you so far as insistence on reading the Noble Quraan is concerned.You have your religion and you are happy with your belief.Therefore there is no need to be critical of others expecially if you are ignorant of their true beliefs.Making false statements is equal to hate remarks.

You look confused, Farouk. I half expect you to eventually find out that you are confusing me with someone else. I certainly don't see how you can possibly accuse me of making false statements.

In total agreement.
PS there are 3 things that cannot remain hidden for long.
1.the sun.
2.the moon.
3.the truth.
The truth is what hurts and if you wish to find peace then free your self of resentful Islamic thoughts.
Peace and no ill feelings will present your Islamic moral teachings tomorrow.

I can't get rid of what I do not have.

 

[gsa]

You have your religion and you are happy with your belief.Therefore there is no need to be critical of others expecially if you are ignorant of their true beliefs.Making false statements is equal to hate remarks.

Incorrect. It assumes, first and foremost, that all religious beliefs are equal (a curious position for a Muslim in any event), which is perhaps true insofar as they can all be said to be erroneous (and note that neither theism, nor atheism, nor deism, nor pantheism, etcetera are "religious beliefs," but positions with respect to deities). Second, there is absolutely a need to be critical of false beliefs. As the saying goes, anything that can be destroyed by the truth should be destroyed by the truth. This includes dangerous belief systems.

Moreover, making false statements is not equivalent to hate speech. A false statement is simply false; it might also be hateful, but it need not be. And in the debates over "Islamophobia," so few of the "false statements" are properly characterized as either false or hateful.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Farouk,

You mentioned that you do community service. That's fantastic, sincerely, but what does that have to do with Islam? I know lots of people, non-believers and people of all religions who do community service. And people were doing community service long before Muhammad was born. So, in this example, I just don't think that Islam can claim to be the moral teacher of community service. You could claim that Islam is one of many sources that teach community service, but that's all.

As far as demonizing your beliefs... well what are they? I'll ask again, what does Islam teach? What do you value that you learned from Islam?

 

[Looncall]

Thank you for your reply.



Well a second attempt and you still get it wrong.
May i ask where did you get that definition of Islam from?
Is that your personal definition or do you have a source?
I am just curious.
Note I don’t blame you for your ignorance but let me define it for you.
In the Noble Quraan the word appears as "Alislama".In English The Islam/the commitment to Allah.
The root is S-L-M and it means dissociation from an entity to re-associate with another that is better.This carries the meaning of health and safety.It also carries the meaning of delivery from one to another and it carries the meaning of peace,since it is the dissociation from harm to peace.Hence you cannot associate the word violence with Islam because it sounds stupid.If you say Islam is violent then what you actually saying is peace is violent.Alislama is the committing to the better entity and that is the commitment to God.The Arabic word for God is Allah.In a religious context it simply means complete submission to the will of God.This complete submission to the will of God is what non-muslims fail to understand.The shariah laws are from God and its in existenance from the time of the Prophet and it can never be changed.These are Gods laws and if we change these laws then we will not be submitting to the will of God.Our religion is based on a “way of life”.This way of life teaches us our morals.How to eat,how to sleep,how to cleanse ourself in the loo,what to eat and what is forbidden to consume,how to wear our clothes,how to take a bathe,…..and the list goes on and on.
Simply put it it teaches us how to conduct ourselves from the time we get out of bed till we get back into bed again.A complete “way of life”.



You have free will to chose your own religion.Every human has an intellect and with reasoning he can make his own decision.I am happy with my religion.But i don't see why anyone should demonise my beliefs because i regard that has hate.



Totally agree with you.That is exactly what Islam has done for me.Note this is a very lengthy subject especially if i have to start talking to you about the community projects that i am personally involved in.Whats more my family is also involved in international community work and we serve all irrespective of religion.Too lengthy and not going to brag about it.



Maybe we await another like Saladin.But just to let you know without morals we could never have produced saladin or Badshah Khan.So far as contradictions are concerned its lack of knowledge on yourside.



So far as hate is concerned i hope you are honest because your postings suggest otherwise.I agree with you so far as insistence on reading the Noble Quraan is concerned.You have your religion and you are happy with your belief.Therefore there is no need to be critical of others expecially if you are ignorant of their true beliefs.Making false statements is equal to hate remarks.



In total agreement.
PS there are 3 things that cannot remain hidden for long.
1.the sun.
2.the moon.
3.the truth.
The truth is what hurts and if you wish to find peace then free your self of resentful Islamic thoughts.
Peace and no ill feelings will present your Islamic moral teachings tomorrow.

This all sounds like simply outsourcing your thinking, especially concerning morality. Not only is that lazy, it is supremely dangerous to all people.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, I believe so. But I think there are many versions of Islam. I'm not going to say any are illegitimate.

Actuatly there is one version of Islam , and many versions of Muslims , if we take numbers , most of Muslims are against ISIS , so ISIS is actuatly in trouble because they rejected by Muslims .

why there is one version of Islam :
there is no Muslims in world for exemple , said Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not prophet or he is son of God , or God ....etc , most of the Muslims agree on the top main beliefs . or Salat (prayers)

So ideology of ISIS comes from Wahabism ,and Hasan Albana, and Siad Kotb , I can define the Muslims problem , that some people sacred the ideology of Wahabism(takfireen) instead of Quran

 

[Augustus]

Actuatly there is one version of Islam , and many versions of Muslims , if we take numbers , most of Muslims are against ISIS , so ISIS is actuatly in trouble because they rejected by Muslims .

why there is one version of Islam :
there is no Muslims in world for exemple , said Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not prophet or he is son of God , or God ....etc , most of the Muslims agree on the top main beliefs . or Salat (prayers)

So ideology of ISIS comes from Wahabism ,and Hasan Albana, and Siad Kotb , I can define the Muslims problem , that some people sacred the ideology of Wahabism(takfireen) instead of Quran

I agree with you about where ISIS ideology comes from, and that they are rejected by most Muslims.

How do you feel about Al-Azhar making a statement that refuses to consider ISIS as apostates? Is it ever acceptable to declare other Muslims as apostates, or is it only for God to decide, no matter how evil you consider their actions to be?

Al-Azhar refuses to consider the Islamic State an apostate - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East