I give up fighting Islamophobia

[Cephus]

I understand that some people have very good reasons to hate Muslims and Islam, but what I can't understand is generalizing it. I don't deserved being hated or disrespectfully addressed in a generalization! I'd never hurt a soul!

I can't believe how irrational some people can be!

And nobody hates you specifically. It isn't our fault that you choose to take a general distrust of Islam and apply it to yourself. Has anyone here said "I hate Smart_Guy"? I haven't seen it.

 

[gsa]

Something I just thought: what exactly should one infer from a Muslim that lives in a largely Muslim society answering in a poll that he does want Sharia law?

How often will that answer be due to rote action learned from peer pressure, (I figure it would be a fairly big scandal for a Muslim to say openly that he would not have Sharia Law among his relatives) and how often will it be due to personal conviction that there is a significant need for Sharia to be applied? And in the last case, what can we infer about wheter the desire involves non-Muslims as well?

There is probably a lot of room between those two extremes. I think we would need to dig a lot deeper to learn the actual desires of the Muslim communities.

Of course, then we would need to deal with regional variations, and with the considerable challenge of ensuring that those who have an opinion have a degree of understanding of what they are opining about (I am not optimistic in that regard).

Even if we overcome all those challenges, though, in the end it will still be a matter of whether there is enough public support for what is still at least superficially and by the available evidence a fairly oppressive law.

Which I suppose is reason enough for secular governments to take steps to oppose or even outlaw it, until and unless it is more clearly explained and shown to be compatible with basic personal freedoms (or adapted for that goal, if need be).

So much for Islamophobia, apparently.

We have to take polling in non-democratic, illiberal Muslim majority countries with about a pound of salt. Presumably there are plenty of apathetic Muslims, secretly atheist Muslims, etcetera. As we can see from the flogging of Raif Badawi, there are lethal consequences to the expression of certain positions in Saudi Arabia. I don't blame people for not wanting to put their lives and lives of their families on the line.

The polling of Muslim opinions within European democracies is far more disheartening.

 

[gsa]

I understand that some people have very good reasons to hate Muslims and Islam, but what I can't understand is generalizing it. I don't deserved being hated or disrespectfully addressed in a generalization! I'd never hurt a soul!

I can't believe how irrational some people can be!

I don't hate Muslims. I don't like Islam because it isn't true and it is oppressive and authoritarian. I have the same critique of Christianity, and if we were having this conversation in the Middle Ages I'd much rather be living in an Islamic country making the critique than a Christian one.

Rest assured, Smart Guy, for most rational critics of Islam specifically and the Abrahamic religions (and religion) more generally, there's little to no ill will for the individual believers. We just believe them to be misguided. And that extends much more forcefully to your government.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't hate Muslims. I don't like Islam because it isn't true and it is oppressive and authoritarian. I have the same critique of Christianity, and if we were having this conversation in the Middle Ages I'd much rather be living in an Islamic country making the critique than a Christian one.

Rest assured, Smart Guy, for most rational critics of Islam specifically and the Abrahamic religions (and religion) more generally, there's little to no ill will for the individual believers. We just believe them to be misguided. And that extends much more forcefully to your government.

I second this.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I don't hate Muslims. I don't like Islam because it isn't true and it is oppressive and authoritarian. I have the same critique of Christianity, and if we were having this conversation in the Middle Ages I'd much rather be living in an Islamic country making the critique than a Christian one.

Rest assured, Smart Guy, for most rational critics of Islam specifically and the Abrahamic religions (and religion) more generally, there's little to no ill will for the individual believers. We just believe them to be misguided. And that extends much more forcefully to your government.[/QUO

Tell me is there any Islamic State in our present day?

 

[faroukfarouk]

I don't hate Muslims. I don't like Islam because it isn't true and it is oppressive and authoritarian. I have the same critique of Christianity, and if we were having this conversation in the Middle Ages I'd much rather be living in an Islamic country making the critique than a Christian one.

Rest assured, Smart Guy, for most rational critics of Islam specifically and the Abrahamic religions (and religion) more generally, there's little to no ill will for the individual believers. We just believe them to be misguided. And that extends much more forcefully to your government.

Tell me which country you refering to as oppressive and authoritarian?

 

[LuisDantas]

Tell me which country you refering to as oppressive and authoritarian?

I can't speak for him, but I would put Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Lybia and Egypt in that list.

 

[Looncall]

Tell me which country you refering to as oppressive and authoritarian?

Any country that has an active anti-blasphemy law.

 

[gsa]

Tell me which country you refering to as oppressive and authoritarian?

Any country that has apostasy laws, enforces blasphemy laws, executes homosexuals, fornicators and adulterers, does not have generally permissive free speech protections, etcetera. Saudi Arabia was the specific example, in reference to Smart Guy, who I believe lives there.

 

[Looncall]

In the world today, with tensions between Muslims and Westerners at historic highs, any misplaced criticism of Muslims, that they should not have the right to practice their religion in their countries as the wish, whether you intend to support world war against Muslims or not, your attitude lends supports to real nut cases and Evil men in our Western Governments that want to start an Armageddon as "prophesied" in their psychotic Book of Revelation. If you think that is not a very real possibility in the world today, you are ignorant and need to educate yourself. This is not about supporting Muslim religion, or advocating Islam, its about FREEDOM, the freedom of Muslims to practice their own religion in their own countries.

Are OK with what ISIS is up to these days?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Any country that has apostasy laws, enforces blasphemy laws, executes homosexuals, fornicators and adulterers, does not have generally permissive free speech protections, etcetera. Saudi Arabia was the specific example, in reference to Smart Guy, who I believe lives there.

Well what you hate is the Sharia Laws.Well without Sharia Laws evil and crime will get out of control.
Stats prove it.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I'm throwing in the towel. I've been fighting Islamophobia since 2001 and I am about to give up. It's a steamroller that can't be stopped and it will plunge this world into a war in which even the moderates on both sides will slaughter one another. Have fun with that!

what brought about WWII, fear of Nazis or appeasement of them?

The last guy to win the Nobel peace prize before it was halted for WWII, did so for fighting that fear, de-escalating the west's opposition and military capability, he had a nice trophy to admire while 10's of millions of innocent people died.

 

[gsa]

Well what you hate is the Sharia Laws.Well without Sharia Laws evil and crime will get out of control.
Stats prove it.

Really? I'd take the murder rates in the US over what's unfolding in Syria any day of the week, thank you.

Also, the specific examples I referenced shouldn't be crimes at all. Penalizing blasphemy and apostasy is a flagrant violation of international human rights norms. We've also managed to decriminalize and even normalize homosexuality without too much fuss.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I agree with you.
The point I was trying to make is that "let's not generalize!" is not an argument against any kind of phobia. OP defined Islamophobia as being an "irrational fear of Islam". I now guess he was talking about hatred towards Islam an Muslims.

Oops, my bad

I felt that the generalizing treatment was related to this.

And nobody hates you specifically. It isn't our fault that you choose to take a general distrust of Islam and apply it to yourself. Has anyone here said "I hate Smart_Guy"? I haven't seen it.

I did explain later that it was the generalizing issue that bothers me. It is like saying that those using a lion for their avatars are (put any negative calling here) instead of them saying (Cephus is this and that) knowing you are using such an avatar.

I don't hate Muslims. I don't like Islam because it isn't true and it is oppressive and authoritarian. I have the same critique of Christianity, and if we were having this conversation in the Middle Ages I'd much rather be living in an Islamic country making the critique than a Christian one.

Rest assured, Smart Guy, for most rational critics of Islam specifically and the Abrahamic religions (and religion) more generally, there's little to no ill will for the individual believers. We just believe them to be misguided. And that extends much more forcefully to your government.

I appreciate that

I respect your opinion of course. Disagreement does not hurt respect I always believed.

 

[catch22]

I doubt there's many "phobes" of Islam. People don't like it, I'm not sure that means they have an irrational fear of it to the point where it causes them anxiety and distress. Phobias do exist, but you can't honestly say the general discontent with Islam around the globe constitutes phobia anymore than that people who are unhappy and question the United States are Americaphobic.

Discontent, dislike, etc is NOT phobic.

 

[gsa]

I appreciate that

I respect your opinion of course. Disagreement does not hurt respect I always believed.

No. Disagreement is inevitable when you have conflicting values and religious beliefs. Disrespect and violence are optional.

 

[catch22]

No. Disagreement is inevitable when you have conflicting values and religious beliefs. Disrespect and violence are optional.

Disrespect and violence are not always optional. Depends what religion you're talking about. One in particular commands it. Others specifically rule against it, in which case, then it would be optionally violating the tenets of that faith.

 

[Smart_Guy]

No. Disagreement is inevitable when you have conflicting values and religious beliefs.

I don't disagree. You do make a good point. What I mean is that whither we agree or disagree, it does not and should not affect how we respect each other. If I disagree with you one day, please don't take it like it affects the fact that I respect you.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Really? I'd take the murder rates in the US over what's unfolding in Syria any day of the week, thank you.

Also, the specific examples I referenced shouldn't be crimes at all. Penalizing blasphemy and apostasy is a flagrant violation of international human rights norms. We've also managed to decriminalize and even normalize homosexuality without too much fuss.

Syria yes they are at war.
Well the difference is we are bound by Gods law and we are happy with it.I am not complaining.
You have man made laws and if are happy with them then its good for you.
The bottom line its a matter of choice.
So far as human rights is concerned your country has the best record in Iraq and Afghan.

 

[Debater Slayer]

People are getting too hung on the term "Islamophobia". Call it what you want but there are people who hate Muslims, there are people who fear Muslims, and there are people who are ignorant of Islam and have all kinds of misconceptions about it. And my sense is that the people like that are on the rise and that is leading to all out war.

... and then there are people who don't know anything about Islam and have all kinds of misconceptions about it, such as the view that things like severe punishment for homosexuality and lashing have no basis in Islamic texts at all, among many other examples.

A lot of people who are ignorant about Islam have a negative view of it based on misconceptions, and a lot of people who are all too educated on it have a negative view of it based on actual texts that are widely accepted among Muslims.