I have another question for YOU to ignore

[savagewind]

As of 1913, the only definition of disciple as a verb that was not obsolete is: "3. To make disciples of; to convert to doctrines or principles."

So I don't know who all these other idolaters that you are getting your definitions from are, but that is not the definition of the verb 'to disciple' and has not been for at let the last 100 years.

Thus your challenge is nonsensical and I grow weary of these false accusations (like idolatry).

Disciple does not mean to make A DISIPCLE. It means to be a personal follower of Jesus as a student.

So at Matthew 28:19 Jesus was saying that they would be still following him (but not to die) John 13:36
to learn from him.

 

[savagewind]

You @atpollard trust the Bible to teach you. I trust God to teach me.

 

[savagewind]

Thus your challenge is nonsensical and I grow weary of these false accusations (like idolatry).

To lean on anything to trust in it is idolatry. Do you disagree?

 

[savagewind]

If any person puts his trust in the Bible to lead him, he is an idolator. If he says, "I am not!", he is also a liar. Instead of ignoring that or beating me over the head with that, why not prove it wrong? Prove me wrong.

Idolatry is the worship of an idol or a physical object as a representation of a god
Worship - reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred
Homage - special honor or respect shown publicly

 

[savagewind]

I trust in my own heart.........idolatry
I trust in my church.........idolatry
I trust in the Bible.........idolatry

Just so you know, to trust (which I do a lot of) and to trust IN are not the same.
To trust IN something is replacing it with the ONE we must trust. Who is that?

The ONE to trust is The Living God. To replace your trust in The Living God with the Bible saying that God gave it to you to trust in instead of God is professing that God is dead. God is not dead.

YOU say you do not trust the Bible instead of God. You say God left us the Bible intact so that we might have something to lean on. Why?

 

[atpollard]

I do not know why you say I reject what Apostles write.

Because of THIS ...

THEY say God would not lie (I believe that!) so God keeps the Bible true.
But God never actually said that everything in the Bible is what God says.
What has God said? I am convinced God said, "This is My Son, whom I have chosen; listen to Him!" and "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.".
I am not aware of anything else God has said.
I am convinced God has not said, "The Bible will be my words which I have chosen, listen to it" and "The Bible will be what I love, and I am well pleased with it".

You reject the 66 books of the Bible as 'what God said'.

I do not believe that Adam and Eve were created as humans who would not die physically.

You do not believe what Moses wrote.

What seems to have been written is disciple, the verb. It was changed to disciple the noun, made plural and the verb make was added.
So what God breathed was this: Disciple the nations baptize them and teach them.
It was changed to Go therefore and make disciples of the nations baptize them and teach them.
I have argued this 100 times or more. I don't want to hear from you what I already know and what has been illustrated for me more times than I can count. I know why you think it says "make disciples". I don't want to hear it again.
To disciple is a verb.
To make is a different verb.
They changed the verb disciple to the verb make.

You reject the words of the Apostles as written and claim "100 times or more" that they have been changed.

It is written God will write the law on people's hearts. Does that mean that on my heart I should have the Bible?

You mock the Bible and hold it up as something worthy of contempt (the implied answer to your rhetorical question is 'of course the Bible ... word of God given by the Prophets and Apostles ... should not be on our heart).

Your words are what led me to the conclusion that I made.
You appear to build a faith on what you feel, irrespective of what the Bible says, and view that as some sort of spiritual enlightenment.
I will not even attempt to dissuade you, however, I call that idolatry ... creating a god-like image to worship while rejecting who the true God has revealed himself to be.
For that reason, only harm can come from continuing this dialog.

[PS. ... and 5 more posts appear while I was responding to this one. See, I can't keep up with the accusations.]

 

[savagewind]

Because of THIS ...


You reject the 66 books of the Bible as 'what God said'.

That is wrong. I do not do that.

You do not believe what Moses wrote.

Some people do not believe Moses wrote what you say, "Moses wrote". I do believe in what "Moses wrote". It isn't my lord. LOL I wrote "is" but then noticed I wrote it wrong. I think the belief that the Bible is as God intended it to be is RIDICULOUS. I understand that to think so is to be making it equal to The Lord God. That is an obvious violation of a commandment. Since I was born again in Christ, I obey the commandments.

You reject the words of the Apostles as written and claim "100 times or more" that they have been changed.

Why would you say I reject what the Apostles wrote? I do not know if you are being funny.

You mock the Bible

Sometimes I mock the people who believe the Bible is The Lord.

and hold it up as something worthy of contempt (the implied answer to your rhetorical question is 'of course the Bible ... word of God given by the Prophets and Apostles ... should not be on our heart).

The Bible should be on my MIND. FYI my mind is not my heart and I know it is true for you too.

Your words are what led me to the conclusion that I made.
You appear to build a faith on what you feel, irrespective of what the Bible says, and view that as some sort of spiritual enlightenment.
I will not even attempt to dissuade you, however, I call that idolatry ... creating a god-like image to worship while rejecting who the true God has revealed himself to be.
For that reason, only harm can come from continuing this dialog.

[PS. ... and 5 more posts appear while I was responding to this one. See, I can't keep up with the accusations.]

I appreciate that you talk to me. Thank you. I know it will stop though.

 

[savagewind]

I didn't say 100 times or more what the apostles wrote changed. What does that even mean?

I have written about what I believe they really wrote 1000 times. 1000? LOL, I wrote 100. I love you!

See? How you seem to be unable to understand even text that is your own language? Are you really English speaking? I am. Haha
John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

I say they* changed disciple the verb into disciple the noun and you say, "Huh?".

OK?

*I do not know who "they" are. Obviously it wasn't a her.

OMG When I write something wrong, it is fun and easily changed. But when a scribe wrote something wrong, it wasn't fun. Maybe someone thought it was too little a mistake, maybe he didn't even notice it, or maybe he thought it might be an improvement. I say God's Word need not be improved upon. What do you say?

 

[savagewind]

The Word of God I believe. That the Bible is the word (singular) of God, I do not believe.

THERE ARE WORDS OF GOD IN IT. I believe that.

Indiana Jones comes to mind again. If an item had just a little tiny speck of The True God in it, it would be precious. Would the ITEM itself be the same as the tiny speck in it?

You can ignore me. I don't care. But, if I am right, then I know you should care. That is probably why I can do it, but nobody else can.

 

[savagewind]

They keep saying that God would not allow the truth to be completely lost.

There are Bible which keep disciple a verb.

Young's Literal Translation
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness.”

International Standard Version
Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore having gone, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

(Some of the Bible change the verb disciple to the verb teach.)

Ironic, that they do not know about disciple the verb.

 

[atpollard]

You can ignore me. I don't care. But, if I am right, then I know you should care. That is probably why I can do it, but nobody else can.

I don't want to 'ignore' you.
What I want to do is avoid a discussion that will cause you any harm (and provoke me to sin).

You make frequent claims that incite the 'old me' to respond in kind.
Galatians 5:15 states "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." and it is this attitude that I do not wish to be provoked into.

Let's try starting from here:

You @atpollard trust the Bible to teach you. I trust God to teach me.

How do 'you' know ANYTHING about God?
How do 'you' know that whatever you believe about God is true?
[Note: I use 'you' in the generic sense of 'anyone' rather than 'you personally', but feel free to answer either way.]

 

[2ndpillar]

Dear muff,
It depends on what you are alluding too. Scripture, defined by Yeshua, was the OT, which could not be broken. Scripture according to most "Christians", followers of false prophet Paul, it is defined by what the Roman church deemed as holy. According to Yeshua, you were not supposed to believe anyone who said that "He" was in the wilderness (Mt 24:26). That is exactly the opposite of what the "Christian" church follows, and they base it on what Paul solely testifies as to what happened in the wilderness. The "Christian" church probably needs a time out sitting in the corner.

 

[savagewind]

I don't want to 'ignore' you.
What I want to do is avoid a discussion that will cause you any harm (and provoke me to sin).

You make frequent claims that incite the 'old me' to respond in kind.
Galatians 5:15 states "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." and it is this attitude that I do not wish to be provoked into.

Let's try starting from here:


How do 'you' know ANYTHING about God?
How do 'you' know that whatever you believe about God is true?
[Note: I use 'you' in the generic sense of 'anyone' rather than 'you personally', but feel free to answer either way.]

I have said again and again and again that people have wrote the truth about what God says and at least some of it can be found in the Bible, but I do not owe the Bible anything, like you seem to think you owe it your devotion. The very book that you seem to be devoted to actually teaches that you are not to be devoted to anything other than GOD.

What I know about God I have seen, heard and read. By your saying that to know God I need to believe the Bible in total is something that is not taught in it. People before the Bible know more than you do about God and it is the same way that I know about God.

 

[savagewind]

If I didn't think that God's true words exist in the Bible why would I care that you are wrong and how would I know?

 

[atpollard]

I have said again and again and again that people have wrote the truth about what God says and at least some of it can be found in the Bible, but I do not owe the Bible anything, like you seem to think you owe it your devotion. The very book that you seem to be devoted to actually teaches that you are not to be devoted to anything other than GOD.
What I know about God I have seen, heard and read. By your saying that to know God I need to believe the Bible in total is something that is not taught in it. People before the Bible know more than you do about God and it is the same way that I know about God.

You spend a lot of time telling me what I think and say.
* "you seem to think you owe it your devotion"
* "you seem to be devoted to"
* "your saying that to know God I need to believe the Bible in total"

I didn't SAY anything about you, I only asked two questions in an attempt to restart the conversation without a fight.
Your answer would TELL me what you believe rather making me guess and I could then comment on what you believe rather than what I might guess that you might believe.

For example you said:

I trust God to teach me.

Does God use the Bible to teach you, or do you talk directly to the resurrected Christ like Paul did?
I could guess, or I could ask:
"How do 'you' know ANYTHING about God?"
"How do 'you' know that whatever you believe about God is true?"


So let's talk about what you had to say:

people have wrote the truth about what God says and at least some of it can be found in the Bible

How can you know which parts are true and which parts are not?
From my perspective, it was all written down true, so I only need to look for manuscript evidence that some word in the bible may not be what was originally written down. I have a clear measure for exactly which parts are suspect. I am unsure what criteria you use to determine whether what you are reading in scripture is a truth God is communicating to you or a lie added by men.
Your earlier statements like

I am convinced God said, "This is My Son, whom I have chosen; listen to Him!" and "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.".
I am not aware of anything else God has said.

leave me a bit confused about what value, if any you place on scripture. In some places you claim it contains Truth, and in other places you claim that 'God said' only one Truth in the Bible.

What I know about God I have seen, heard and read.

Would it be fair to ask where?
Have truths of God been seen in his creation, or have you beheld his glory like Moses at the burning bush?
Who has told you about God (Pastors, TV Evangelists, friends) and how do you know whether their opinions are correct or not?
Where have you read about God? The Bible or other books?
... And the critical issue: How do YOU evaluate what is to be believed and what is not?

Now turnabout is fair play and dialogue is two way, so I owe you more than just questions. However, you asked no specific questions for me to answer, but you did make potentially false accusations that I can address:

you seem to think you owe it your devotion. The very book that you seem to be devoted to actually teaches that you are not to be devoted to anything other than GOD.

I am not devoted to the Bible in anything approaching the manner of my devotion to God. For the record, I was converted from atheism to Christianity by the living witness of a Catholic Charismatic Fellowship (lay Catholics, not Priests, meeting on Friday evenings). I was never able to embrace Catholicism because I could not reconcile what the Catechism for Inquirers taught with what I was able to understand of the Gospels (which wasn't much). However I found sufficient evidence in THEIR prayers and faith to accept the remote possibility that a god might exist. It was a 'road to Damascus' type of encounter that convinced me that Jesus Christ was that God and allowed me to exchange the gangs and drug trafficking and arson for a completely different life. So my faith in Jesus far predates any knowledge of scripture beyond an utterly superficial layer.

When I finally got around to really reading and studying the Bible, I discovered threads and precepts that ran throughout it from cover to cover. Far too many and far too tightly linked to be coincidence. The deeper I dig, the stronger the connections seem to become. Thus for me, the evidence of scripture itself is that it is 'God-breathed' and that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. I study and revere scripture, not in place of God, but because in the words I discover a window into the heart of God and the power to transform human souls. I am not devoted TO the Bible, I am devoted to the God who wrote the Bible. It is HIS love letter to me. That makes it more than 'A' book, that makes it 'HIS' book and 'OUR' (His and mine) book. I read it to get to know Him better. So I am not devoted to a book instead of God or alongside God, I am devoted to God through the Word, both written and made Flesh.

If you are going to try and convince me that it is wrong to love his word, you are going to need to quote specific verses that say it is wrong.

 

[savagewind]

I am devoted to the God who wrote the Bible. It is HIS love letter to me.

Can we agree on the fact that people wrote the Bible? People translated the Bible. People copied the Bible. People chose what goes in and what stays out.

Do I think all that was guided to an extent? Yes.

I like the post. Arson, huh?

 

[savagewind]

You spend a lot of time telling me what I think and say.
* "you seem to think you owe it your devotion"
* "you seem to be devoted to"

You are loyal to IT. That is devoted.

* "your saying that to know God I need to believe the Bible in total"

I think you say this. You say, "how else can a person know God" and "how do I know what are God's words and what are not God's words". YOU seem to be preaching the total Bible as true.

I didn't SAY anything about you, I only asked two questions in an attempt to restart the conversation without a fight.

Thank you. I love you too.

Your answer would TELL me what you believe rather making me guess and I could then comment on what you believe rather than what I might guess that you might believe.

I believe Jesus is God's Word and that Jesus is not the Bible.

Does God use the Bible to teach you, or do you talk directly to the resurrected Christ like Paul did?

I think both.

"How do 'you' know ANYTHING about God?"

God answers my prayers and my prayers are not in the Bible, though they might be.

"How do 'you' know that whatever you believe about God is true?"

I don't. But I DO know what other people believe about God isn't true and I suppose for me that is more important right now.

How can you know which parts are true and which parts are not?

I am sure I am being guided.

From my perspective, it was all written down true,

That is you breaking the wisdom of God, which I believe is true, at Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; Psalms 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. Princes and human beings wrote what you trust. And there are more (scriptures about it), but you know that.

so I only need to look for manuscript evidence that some word in the bible may not be what was originally written down.

I do that. I think I might be smart.

I have a clear measure for exactly which parts are suspect.

I do not know what to say about that.

I am unsure what criteria you use to determine whether what you are reading in scripture is a truth God is communicating to you or a lie added by men.

I just use the cleanest copy.

leave me a bit confused about what value, if any you place on scripture. In some places you claim it contains Truth, and in other places you claim that 'God said' only one Truth in the Bible.

I was just talking about speech there.

Would it be fair to ask where?

In my head and in my heart. I sing to God. I think God likes me.

Have truths of God been seen in his creation, or have you beheld his glory like Moses at the burning bush?

Both. I have seen God's glory. I can't describe it. If I could, I might write a book.

Who has told you about God (Pastors, TV Evangelists, friends)

Not friends. My mother might have. Or my grandmother might have. I don't remember. My father didn't. He did though say something about the Bible and I brushed him off at the time because I was a JW and that is what we were taught to do.

and how do you know whether their opinions are correct or not?

There are no human opinions that are correct for another person.

Where have you read about God? The Bible or other books?

I have tasted everlasting life. Do you know what that means?

... And the critical issue: How do YOU evaluate what is to be believed and what is not?

I do not evaluate.

Now turnabout is fair play and dialogue is two way, so I owe you more than just questions. However, you asked no specific questions for me to answer, but you did make potentially false accusations that I can address:

If you are going to try and convince me that it is wrong to love his word, you are going to need to quote specific verses that say it is wrong.

I am not going to do that. I wish more people would love God's Word and God's words.

 

[atpollard]

Can we agree on the fact that people wrote the Bible? People translated the Bible. People copied the Bible. People chose what goes in and what stays out.

Yes, however, they were not careless people and actually made some impressive efforts to treat God's word with respect and provide cross checks for accuracy. When I study why the included and excluded books, it is hard to argue with their logic. For example, a Gospel written 200 years after Jesus death was probably not written by a man who died in the First Century ... not included. A Gospel quoted by Paul alongside Deuteronomy AS inspired Scripture is probably worthy of inclusion. That sort of stuff.

Do I think all that was guided to an extent? Yes.

Me, too.
I draw better than I write, but I know that there are times when an idea just pops into your head and even before you start, you just KNOW what the finished product will be like. The process of creating reality from the inspiration changes it in minor details, but in the end, the 'truth' that was in the inspiration that only you could see, is still clearly visible in the finished work. Only now everyone can see it.

I suspect that Biblical Inspiration might be like that. Each writer chose his own words to express what he had been given to express, but the Holy Spirit was faithful to provide a clear vision of the truth of God that he was to express and helped protect the crafting of that truth in human words to preserve the accurate transmission of God's message.

I like the post. Arson, huh?

Thanks. Yes, sad but true. I did a lot of really bad things. Transporting cocaine over state lines. Fire-bombing buildings. Training 13 year old throw-aways to carry on the trade after I was dead. Nihilism at its best.

Time for dinner.
Chat later.

 

[savagewind]

@atpollard Is that you can't get by wanting to know what songs I sing?
Or is it that I said I love you?
Or is it that I said I am sure I hear from Christ like Paul did? Other people do too. It's not about me and Paul.

 

[savagewind]

What need a person to endure in (I actually love that sentence ) to be saved and what kind of saving do they get?