I have issues with Islam

[beenie]

I tend to agree because ayatollah only represent Shia Muslims. The vast majority of Sunni Muslims look askance at Shia opinions on a host of issues. Shia is what? 9% of the Muslim world? That said, Imams (Sunni) do wield considerable power and influence over their followers. Granted, no Muslim is required to follow the ruling of any Imam and don't, but many, many do. Many allow themselves to be used as little wind-up dolls ... as we see violence so often erupt in the Muslim world just after Friday prayers...

I agree. I have no magical answers for what to do about extremists and terrorist Muslims, but I sure as hell wish they would all disappear.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Off topic, Woodrow, but have you ever seen a Canadian comedy called "Little Mosque on the Prairie"? It was really quite a wonderful show and portrayed Muslims in a sensitive but humorous light as we Canadians are famous for.

I watched it a few times. I found it very similar to what we have here. The oldest Mosque in the USA is located in Ross North Dakota.
Basically only one family attends it as they are the only Muslims within 200 miles of it. There are about 8 remaining members of the family which has maintained the Mosque since the early 1900s and the Mosque was built by the family on their farm. Currently the 3 or 4 oldest brothers in the family take turns leading the prayers.
Outside of that the TV show is very much like what life is like for Muslims in North Dakota

 

[beenie]

@oldbadger I want to reply to your post as well, but I will do so when I'm back at my computer so I can go through your reply paragraph by paragraph.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Each Mosque is individual with no physical or organizational ties to any other.

In the UK we have things like the Muslim Council and there is clearly some sense of leadership and representation in place.
In any case I think that the Muslim community could and should do more to root out the jihadists, and promote Islam as a religion of peace. Islam clearly needs to be reformed and dragged into the 21st century, and it's Muslims who need to take on the challenge. Oppression of women, homophobic bigotry, all this mediaeval nonsense needs to stop, it's just unacceptable in a modern society.
So for example the London 7/7 bombers would have been attending a mosque, I wonder what questions were asked of that mosque after the bombings. Sorry but I don't really buy this throwing up of the hands approach.

 

[Woodrow LI]

In the UK we have things like the Muslim Council and there is clearly some sense of leadership and representation in place.
In any case I think that the Muslim community could and should do more to root out the jihadists, and promote Islam as a religion of peace. Islam clearly needs to be reformed and dragged into the 21st century, and it's Muslims who need to take on the challenge. Oppression of women, homophobic bigotry, all this mediaeval nonsense needs to stop, it's just unacceptable in a modern society.
So for example the London 7/7 bombers would have been attending a mosque, I wonder what questions were asked of that mosque after the bombings. Sorry but I don't really buy this throwing up of the hands approach.

One thing I find different here in the USA is the Muslims here are more diverse and are intermingled with Muslims that have Family roots here dating back Hundreds of years.
for example my wife's family is Native American and has Islamic roots dating at least back to the early Syrian fur Traders that came into the region in the 1800s.
I find also that over in the Chippewa tribes in the vicinity of Winnipeg there are Native American Muslims with a similar History.
But over all Muslims in America are not predominately from one or 2 nations and most have a long history of being American Citizens. I find many like my family (Lietuva Lipkas) Lithuanian Tatar are returning to our Islamic roots.

A Muslim in the US is not likely to be Mideastern most are from west Africa who's ancestors came as slaves and from the Steppers of Russia and the Baltic Nations.
there are very little national cultural ties among American Muslims, at least none that I have seen to date.

 

[beenie]

In the UK we have things like the Muslim Council and there is clearly some sense of leadership and representation in place.
In any case I think that the Muslim community could and should do more to root out the jihadists, and promote Islam as a religion of peace. Islam clearly needs to be reformed and dragged into the 21st century, and it's Muslims who need to take on the challenge. Oppression of women, homophobic bigotry, all this mediaeval nonsense needs to stop, it's just unacceptable in a modern society.
So for example the London 7/7 bombers would have been attending a mosque, I wonder what questions were asked of that mosque after the bombings. Sorry but I don't really buy this throwing up of the hands approach.

Well said. I don't want to hear that mosques are independent and therefore or responsible for what is taught in another mosque. While I unstand why a clergy isn't ideal, the one thing it does benefit is that there is a sense of responsibility for all local "imams", "mullahs", etc, and what they teach. There are no simple answers, but we have to start somewhere, and I say we start with education.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Well said. I don't want to hear that mosques are independent and therefore or responsible for what is taught in another mosque. While I unstand why a clergy isn't ideal, the one thing it does benefit is that there is a sense of responsibility for all local "imams", "mullahs", etc, and what they teach. There are no simple answers, but we have to start somewhere, and I say we start with education.

I think first there has to be some understanding of terms

A Mullah is a Shi'ite tile for an Shi'ite lawyer and is a political appointment in Iran
A Mufti is roughly a Sunni equivalent but is a politically appointed lawyer in Saudi.
I think Pakistan is now doing the same.
An Imam is supposed to be simply the person who leads the obligatory prayers with no preaching and is not to do any teaching or interpretation of the Qur'an

the primary and often the only teacher of Islam one comes across is his/her mother followed closely by other family members and friends.

 

[oldbadger]

Boon-dock is American slang. It refers to regions that are essentially unpopulated. Sort like the Australian out back. North Dakota actually both Dakotas are considered boondocks. North Dakota in Area is about 71,000 square miles and a poulation of about 700,000 with nearly half the population living in the 2 cities of Fargo and Bismarck most of the state is open prairie land.n with scattered small towns most with a population of less than 100

before I accepted Islam I was living in Austin, Texas a reasonably large city and with a Muslim population larger than the Muslim population in both Dakotas combined.
Even there I never saw a permanent Imam all the Imams were simply the oldest person present at prayer time, which often ended up being me.
I also quickly learned that if you want a Mosque, you build it your self. There is no help from any central organization. If you want an Imam
either the local community picks one or they all take turns, which seems to be the norm in the USA. I eventually found out there are less than 700 imams in the entire USA nearly all with no religious training.

During warm weather when we live on Pine Ridge Reservation the Rez has an area of about 25,000 square miles and a population of about 15,000 people I know about 10 Muslim families there. When I am there I do serve as Imam and we take turns using each other's houses as being the Mosque.

You just taught me more about Islam in the USA than I ever knew before.
Thankyou.

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger I want to reply to your post as well, but I will do so when I'm back at my computer so I can go through your reply paragraph by paragraph.

No probs......
See your post later......

 

[Woodrow LI]

You just taught me more about Islam in the USA than I ever knew before.
Thankyou.

I suspect it is different from what is seen in the UK

 

[Debater Slayer]

Well, comewith me-
1. Islam-.
U-who announcedtheir followersto MuhammadinMeccawas a little
O-MadinahIslamic Jihadannounced
B-participated in these wars and military commander
L-canonsMohammedkilledprisoners

I can't make heads or tails of most of this post, to be honest, but I'll try to respond to the parts that don't seem completely vague. I'll also quote some Qur'anic verses because I think that's the clearest way to answer some of the things you've brought up.

Regarding Muhammad's killing prisoners (from here; highlighting mine):

Sahih International
A spring of which the [righteous] servants of Allah will drink; they will make it gush forth in force [and abundance].

Sahih International
They [are those who] fulfill [their] vows and fear a Day whose evil will be widespread.

Sahih International
And they give food in spite of love for it to the needy, the orphan, and the captive,

It seems to me that someone who wanted to kill prisoners wouldn't teach something like the above.

T-Mocanonsspoilsin war
N-after Muhammad's death
M-the wars ofapostasy
K-the battle ofthe camel
Z-killedthreeCaliphs
S-Umayyad Caliphate
9. the killing of Hassan and Hussein at the hands of the Umayyads
P-Hajjaj binYusufalthagafi
H.fightswithPersian
D.withthe Romans
E.the Abbasid Caliphate
G-Ottoman
Andthe Fatimids inEgypt
And the Fatimids are major causes of the Crusades
Æ a Fatimid ordered the demolition of churches
In Palestine
There are many details
2. every Muslim wars based on Quran
4. the verses in the Qur'an are fighting in wars
5. the word fight and fought more than 96 times in the Qur'an
6. the teachings of the Koran in fighting

Quote the verses in the Qur'an that encourage inhumane acts in war and/or outline "the teachings of the Koran in fighting" you claim they do.

7. now come with me to the Christian
Christianity spread by peaceful

This is downright laughable. Let's see...

Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Salem witch trials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Germanic Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An excerpt from the last link:

Eventually, the conversion was imposed by armed force and successfully completed by Charles the Great (Charlemagne) and the Franks in a series of campaigns (the Saxon Wars), starting in 772 with the destruction of their Irminsul and culminating in the defeat and massacre of Saxon leaders at the Bloody Verdict of Verden in 787 and the subjugation of this large tribe by forced population movements of Saxons into Frankish territory and vice-versa.

8. all wars by Christians
Defensivewars
It is not offensive

See above. This is just as laughable as your previous statement.

10. every Christian wars are wars of interests

Yeah... "interests" like forced conversions, persecution of non-Christians, and killing so-called "heretics."

11. There is no clear text from the Bible allowed in combat
12. each Gospel is not allowed in the war
13. modern warfare
14 Iraq war
It is because of the ambitions of the West in oil
16. also through a formal invitation from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait
17. the Americans helped Muslims in Bosnia
18. no George Bush fights to spread Christianity in the world

I think the Bible has enough tribalistic and violent texts without needing to preach war on top of the violent verses it already contains.

19. There are thousands of fatwas to kill Christians and infidels

There are thousands of fatwas not to kill Christians and "infidels." What's your point?

20 there are clear verses of the Qur'an to kill Christians, Jews and pagans

Then quote them so that we can see if that's really what they teach or not.

And leave the rest to the following responses
Abstract.-
The dialogue is about the Christian and Islamic texts
21. the Islamic ideology based on Quran
And Mohammed
22. Christian ideology based on the Gospel
23. the correct dialogue is a study of Christian texts
24. also learn Islamic texts
25. that ideology have objectives

Of course... the Christian ideology is based on the gospel—except when it's based on the prejudiced opinions of people like Paul who distorted and twisted the original message of Jesus so much that it almost became unrecognizable.

And means
26. means of Islamic ideology
El-sword
O-sex
A-loot
N-encouragement
M-intimidation

According to your own understanding, right?

 

[Augustus]

There are no simple answers, but we have to start somewhere, and I say we start with education.

I don't think that education is the issue, many extremists are highly educated individuals. An extremist may be university educated or a former gang member from the streets, education has little to do with it.

Looking at other violent ideologies, communism had a sizeable following in intellectual circles, in the 70s and early 80s intellectuals were still publicly denying many atrocities in the Soviet Union in their apologetics. Orwell once said that some beliefs are so stupid that only an educated person could find them believable.

The problem with utopian ideologies is that they have to be punctured by reality, rather than abstract reasoning. Communism died because communist regimes failed, ditto fascism.

Even then, people still wear Che Guevara t-shirts today, who was not only a (highly educated) violent revolutionary, but a completely incompetent violent revolutionary. Yet, he is still a hero to many because he represents an ideal rather than a reality.

Humans easily come to accept that violence can make the world better. it's not just Jihadis, Communists or Nazis, it is also has been the dominant Western foreign policy narrative for some considerable time.

Violent ideologies always have and always will exist. They are transient and cyclical individually though. They are narrative driven and mythical but feed off events and actualities.

Ideologies are hard to kill, it is much more common that they die of natural causes. The last 15 years of global events has done nothing but fuel the narrative though and help to reanimate the myth.

 

[Chev Chelios]

So what are you and your secular leaders doing to try and stop the British government's terrorism and extremism?

Please detail what terrorist activities you are referring to? I believe it is safe to assume that your cryptic response refers to the war against Islamic extremism in Afghanistan and Iraq? If you are (and you are) - erm, well you must have missed the million plus crowd (including me) who marched AGAINST it in London. It seems you have also missed the potent anti war stance of the general media (and public) who, here in the UK , have never stopped roasting the government for its ineptitude.

However, if you are trying to frame these ill judged wars as something other than a misguided attempt at liberating an oppressed people then shame on you for this was its over-arching theme. Let's be in no doubt, these wars were fought against the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein NOT Moslems. These were brutal dictatorships, regimes and organisations who shot little girls in the head for wanting to get an education and whom really WERE raping and slaughtering and persecuting Moslems. That the 'Moslem world' did nothing about all this carnage to their 'brothers', only to whine when the West intervened to stop it is typical of the Orwellian nature of Moslems - crying oppression when it was actually liberation.

This example shows how Moslems (and I AM talking about the majority) will deceptively invert reality to shape the never ending narrative of 'Islamic' victimhood. That this idealistic Western intervention was in many ways self serving (i.e. create western friendly nations) does not give us the right to lie about much of what underpinned it - a genuine attempt at bringing freedom and democracy to a people who didn't have it. Shame on you.

 

[beenie]

I don't think that education is the issue, many extremists are highly educated individuals. An extremist may be university educated or a former gang member from the streets, education has little to do with it.

Looking at other violent ideologies, communism had a sizeable following in intellectual circles, in the 70s and early 80s intellectuals were still publicly denying many atrocities in the Soviet Union in their apologetics. Orwell once said that some beliefs are so stupid that only an educated person could find them believable.

The problem with utopian ideologies is that they have to be punctured by reality, rather than abstract reasoning. Communism died because communist regimes failed, ditto fascism.

Even then, people still wear Che Guevara t-shirts today, who was not only a (highly educated) violent revolutionary, but a completely incompetent violent revolutionary. Yet, he is still a hero to many because he represents an ideal rather than a reality.

Humans easily come to accept that violence can make the world better. it's not just Jihadis, Communists or Nazis, it is also has been the dominant Western foreign policy narrative for some considerable time.

Violent ideologies always have and always will exist. They are transient and cyclical individually though. They are narrative driven and mythical but feed off events and actualities.

Ideologies are hard to kill, it is much more common that they die of natural causes. The last 15 years of global events has done nothing but fuel the narrative though and help to reanimate the myth.

Then what is your suggestion? I would love to know what we as human beings can do to stop the cycle of violence.

 

[oldbadger]

I suspect it is different from what is seen in the UK

I feel sure that you are right.
The Muslim population here is much higher, and some cities have massive % Muslim populations.

Also there are towns and cities with huge Sikh, Hindu and other populations.

For instance, Nottingham has a particularly high Polish population.

The mix of cultures here is simply vast........ cosmopolitan isn't a big enough description!

 

[Woodrow LI]

I feel sure that you are right.
The Muslim population here is much higher, and some cities have massive % Muslim populations.

Also there are towns and cities with huge Sikh, Hindu and other populations.

For instance, Nottingham has a particularly high Polish population.

The mix of cultures here is simply vast........ cosmopolitan isn't a big enough description!

I just realized that the UK has a large Polish Population. As some Poles are "Lietuva Lipkas" (Polish/Lithuanian Tatars) and are Muslim, I looked for some Tatar organizations in the UK. found some, the largest seems to be: http://tatar.org.uk/en/category/history/

Do you recall ever having any issues with the Polish Muslims in the UK? It seems they have a fairly long history being there

While my family was Lipkas from Lithuania and I knew I was Lipkas, I was unaware that many Lipkas were Muslim until after I accepted Islam. Kind of surprised me to discover that.

I do find that most Polish and Lithuanian Lipkas jn the USA tend to keep a low profile about being Muslim.

 

[Woodrow LI]

In the UK we have things like the Muslim Council and there is clearly some sense of leadership and representation in place.
In any case I think that the Muslim community could and should do more to root out the jihadists, and promote Islam as a religion of peace. Islam clearly needs to be reformed and dragged into the 21st century, and it's Muslims who need to take on the challenge. Oppression of women, homophobic bigotry, all this mediaeval nonsense needs to stop, it's just unacceptable in a modern society.
So for example the London 7/7 bombers would have been attending a mosque, I wonder what questions were asked of that mosque after the bombings. Sorry but I don't really buy this throwing up of the hands approach.

Hard to tell if they ever attended any Mosque. typically we do not "belong to a Mosque" We simply go to the nearest Mosque when the Athan is called

A Mosque does not do any preaching it is for prayer only. While an Islamic center usually has a Mosque in it they do often house a school and hold lectures.
I find that most of us limit our Mosque presence to running in at prayer time and getting out and returning to work as soon as the pryer ends.

You may have more organization of the Mosques in the UK than what I find in the USA. Here of the 2300 known Mosques I find the majority are not permanent, have no Imam and are simply an empty room in a neighbors house

I know of 5 Mosques in ND only 2 were constructed to be Mosques the other 3 are simply local college groups holding prayer in any available university day room

even in my non-Muslim years I found that most often the only Islamic training a person has is what they get from their family.
Although I attended a Mosque 5 times daily when I lived in Austin and never heard an Imam give a sermon or lecture. I found that most times I ended up being the Imam for the prayer.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Another view of Lipka and perhaps a little insight into the Muslim presence in Europe and the UK for over 600 years. Yes the Lipka did fight against the Ottoman empire at the "Gates of Vienna"

Poland's Lipka Tatars: A Model For Muslims In Europe?

 

[Pink Top Hat]

Ah....... good!
You've opened the thread for all. Excellent!

I live in England.
2 years ago I took issue with the way in which some Muslim children can be subjected to educational pressures by parents and Muslim schools...... I learned that some parents pressure their children to learn the Koran by heart (hafiz) because if these children would succeed then their parents believe that they will gain a place in heaven automatically.

There are other issues in England, such as pressuring Muslim girls to marry strange partners, and the incidence of honour attacks and killings of Muslim women who refuse or seek freedom from such subjection is not uncommon here.

I get the feeling that Muslim priests do not do enough to guide their congregations away from such incidents. After serious incidents there are calls from the priesthood for order, and declarations that terrorism and crime will not be supported by the Muslim communities, but I do begin to wonder whether these are genuine.

One Muslim member on RF showed this once, during a discussion about an attack by Muslim Terrorists upon an oil refinery in an African desert. Local forces attacked the terrorists, and about thirty were killed, along with nearly all of the hostages. At this news the member made a post which read '30 Muslims gone to heaven'. or something similar to that.

This is my question......... how many Muslims discreetly jubilate when they hear of terrorist attacks, honour attacks on wayward females, bullying of slow school children?

Muslims do not have priests.

 

[oldbadger]

In the UK we have things like the Muslim Council and there is clearly some sense of leadership and representation in place.
In any case I think that the Muslim community could and should do more to root out the jihadists, and promote Islam as a religion of peace. Islam clearly needs to be reformed and dragged into the 21st century, and it's Muslims who need to take on the challenge. Oppression of women, homophobic bigotry, all this mediaeval nonsense needs to stop, it's just unacceptable in a modern society.
So for example the London 7/7 bombers would have been attending a mosque, I wonder what questions were asked of that mosque after the bombings. Sorry but I don't really buy this throwing up of the hands approach.

I just realized that the UK has a large Polish Population. As some Poles are "Lietuva Lipkas" (Polish/Lithuanian Tatars) and are Muslim, I looked for some Tatar organizations in the UK. found some, the largest seems to be: http://tatar.org.uk/en/category/history/

Do you recall ever having any issues with the Polish Muslims in the UK? It seems they have a fairly long history being there

While my family was Lipkas from Lithuania and I knew I was Lipkas, I was unaware that many Lipkas were Muslim until after I accepted Islam. Kind of surprised me to discover that.

I do find that most Polish and Lithuanian Lipkas jn the USA tend to keep a low profile about being Muslim.

Hello again.......... that was why I mentioned the Notts pop of Poles.

I get the impression that they have a very close social community. Because life was much tougher in Eastern Europe, most E.Europeans are massively resourceful and natural born survivors.

Many Latvians and E.Europeans have been coming to East Kent, England to pick farmed crops......... E.Europeans work hard, whereas the English tend to be less hardy, a little more lazy............ true.

We had many swans and ducks swimming in the streams and lakes around Canterbury, but over a few years they declined and even disappeared from some areas. But after some court cases where E.Europeans were convicted of killing swans and stuffing them into their rucksacks, local people tended to form an opinion about all the disappearances. Having said that, when I was a youth I was a poacher, so I am not without sin in this area!!