[ I have one question ]

[search the scriptures]

Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

If :
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

How can jesus have :

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Isa 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

[Bowman]

a singular 'throne' is what is being discussed in that verse...

Correct.

but certainly not singular identities as you have acknowledged.

Both are worshiped as the ONE God, as proven by the singulars.

Can two identities rule from one throne? yes they can. God allowed men to sit on his throne to govern the Isrealites, and yet Jehovah was still the God whom they obeyed.

You still have yet to show me where any human was ever worshiped as the ONE God...such as was shown you in Revelation with Jesus and Theos.

Jesus is God.

Just accept this fact.

And with regard to a 'throne'... there is no physical throne in heaven. Nothing physical exists up there.

Then why is Heaven described with a geography?

But the throne being occupied by Jesus and Jehovah represents 'authority' just as the earthly throne of the Davidic kings represented Jehovahs authority.

And....both are worshiped as the ONE God.

What part of this do you not understand?

Considering you used a scripture discussing the singular throne, I dont know how you can come to the conclusion that Jesus is God.

By the usage of the Greek, brother.

Would you like to review the Greek words used for worship and praise of Theos and Jesus, and tell me why both are listed and yet, applied in the Singular?

Both are the ONE God.

There simply is no escape from this, brother...

They both have authority, Jehovah because he is the Almighty and Jesus because he has been granted to have such authority.

Nope.

Jesus is God.

So, they are two separate identities who both sit with the same authority, although as i've shown you from Pauls words, Jesus will one day relinquish his authority and so the only authority that we will all serve at that time is Jehovah.

How do you justify Pauls words at 1Corinthians?

You take all scripture into account when drawing a conclusion, brother.

I know that Revelation is part of your NWT, and, even in the English you can very easily see that Jesus is God.

How can you miss it?

 

[search the scriptures]

3 persons who are co equal, co eternal, co powerful, that make up one God -The divine Almighty strength of the universe, the creator JEHOVA.

Jesus(Gods word) created all things, with the father and the holy spirit. God created all things

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image

one in will, strength, power and rule as one God, JEHOVA

Gen 1:26 And God said

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Hear o israel: JEHOVA our God(the father, the word, and the holy spirit) one(numeral of "properly united") JEHOVA

 

[Pegg]

Both are worshiped as the ONE God, as proven by the singulars.
You still have yet to show me where any human was ever worshiped as the ONE God...such as was shown you in Revelation with Jesus and Theos.

Jesus is God.

Just accept this fact.

Where is Jesus in the OT?

Then why is Heaven described with a geography?

God uses human terms so that we can understand. He also speaks of his hand, his eye, his foot...but he has none of these physical things...he is a spirit.

I know that Revelation is part of your NWT, and, even in the English you can very easily see that Jesus is God.

How can you miss it?

You cant' miss it...the problem is that is just not there as these references show:


The Encyclopedia of Religion says: “Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.”

Jesuit Fortman states: “The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.”

The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.”

Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.”

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: “The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. ‘The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence’ [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth].”

Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: “To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it.”—Origin and Evolution of Religion.

Historian Arthur Weigall notes: “Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.


The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology: “Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”

The Paganism in Our Christianity: “The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”

Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics: “At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”

 

[javajo]

When I read John 1, I believed that this to be nothing more than John's own metaphor, motif or even a parable. This was nothing that Jesus taught. Unless one of you Christians provide a similar identification of Jesus being Logo or the Word from the gospels that Jesus specifically identify himself as the Word, then you can't take this literally (meaning this quote is merely a metaphor).

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Genesis 1:3
Then God said, "Let us (plural God)make man in our(plural God) likeness...So God created man in his own likeness. He created him in the likeness of God. Genesis 1:26a,27a

He has saved us from the kingdom of darkness. He has brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves. Because of what the Son has done, we have been set free. Because of him, all of our sins have been forgiven.

Christ Is Far Above Everything

Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation. All things were created by him. He created everything in heaven and on earth. He created everything that can be seen and everything that can't be seen. He created kings, powers, rulers and authorities. Everything was created by him and for him. Before anything was created, he was already there. He holds everything together. Colossians 1:13-17

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1John 5:7

 

[Pegg]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1John 5:7

“I have given them the glory which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.” John 17:22.

The 'oneness' Jesus is talking about is 'unity'

Jesus is in perfect unity with his Father and Jesus wanted the disciples to be in perfect unity with each other.

 

[javajo]

As the Spirit of God hovered above the void earth and God spoke, all three were present, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Jesus said before Abraham was, "I AM." John and Paul said Jesus created everything, that he was with God and was God.

Unity is another subject, but I also take it to mean that as Christ is "in" God the Father, we are "in" Christ. Like a barrel in a barrel in a barrel. So if Satan were to try to get to me he would have to go through God the Father and God the Son and he would have to first break the seal of the Holy Spirit. An impossible task. So we are safe and secure in Christ.

 

[search the scriptures]

Rev 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Almighty:
παντοκράτωρ
pantokratōr
pan-tok-rat'-ore
From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent.


Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Almighty:
παντοκράτωρ
pantokratōr
pan-tok-rat'-ore
From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent.


Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Almighty:
παντοκράτωρ
pantokratōr
pan-tok-rat'-ore
From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Almighty:
παντοκράτωρ
pantokratōr
pan-tok-rat'-ore
From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Almighty :
παντοκράτωρ
pantokratōr
pan-tok-rat'-ore
From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent.

 

[search the scriptures]

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Rev 2:23 " and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. "

 

[Pegg]

As the Spirit of God hovered above the void earth and God spoke, all three were present, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Yes I agree that the Father and the Son were present at the creation and I agree that it was Jesus who created all things but I dont agree that it was in the sense that he was the 'Creator'. There is a passage in Prov. 8:27-30 which could only apply to the Son because as we all agree, Jesus was with God in the beginning. But notice how this verse describes Jesus role in the creation as a 'master worker'...this implies that he worked under the direction of his Father in the same way an apprentice works under a tradesperson.
“When [God] prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a horizon upon the face of the surging waters, when he made firm the cloud masses above, . . . when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker and I came to be what he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time.”

Jesus said before Abraham was, "I AM." John and Paul said Jesus created everything, that he was with God and was God.

with regard to this verse, the translation in some bibles as 'I AM' is quite dubious. The reason being that in Exodus the expression “I AM” is used as a title or a name, and in the Hebrew this expression is the one word Ehyéh . However, in John 8:58 in the greek text the word is Egó eimí which is the same word found at John 8:24, 28 where the King James and the Douay Version and others render it as “I am he”

Now why do they do that at John 8:24 & 28 but not at John 8:58?

And to get the best understanding, its really Hebrew scholars who have it right because they know the hebrew text very well and they do not translate the greek Egó eimí into the hebrew phrase Ehyéh.

Here is how some Hebrew scholars translated the Greek into Hebrew: Dr. Franz Delitzsch: “Before Abraham was, I have been.” Isaac Salkinson and David Ginsburg: “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.” In both cases they use two Hebrew words, aní hayíthi rather then the Hebrew word found at exodus - Ehyéh.

Here are how some english translators correctly put this verse:
Moffatt: “I have existed before Abraham was born.”
Schonfield and An American Translation: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
Stage (German): “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
Pfaefflin (German): “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”
George M. Lamsa, translating from the Syriac Pe****ta, says: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
Dr. James Murdock, also translating from the Syriac Pe****to Version, says: “Before Abraham existed, I was.”
The Brazilian Sacred Bible published by the Catholic Bible Center of São Paulo says: “Before Abraham existed, I was existing.”

Unity is another subject, but I also take it to mean that as Christ is "in" God the Father, we are "in" Christ. Like a barrel in a barrel in a barrel. So if Satan were to try to get to me he would have to go through God the Father and God the Son and he would have to first break the seal of the Holy Spirit. An impossible task. So we are safe and secure in Christ.

Ok, but Jesus said that he wanted his disciples to be one with 'each other'
So how can the disciples be 'in' each other? That doesnt really make too much sense.

It makes much more sense to understand his words to mean that he wanted his disciples to 'in unity' with each other so that they could have a 'oneness of spirit' in the same way that Jesus is in unity with his Father and they have a oneness of spirit.

 

[javajo]

I believe Jesus is God so that is why he said that before Moses was I AM, (the other translations are ok) and this is why the Jews sought to kill him, because he made himself equal with God. So I can believe Paul when he says: Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation. All things were created by him. He created everything in heaven and on earth. He created everything that can be seen and everything that can't be seen. He created kings, powers, rulers and authorities. Everything was created by him and for him. Before anything was created, he was already there. He holds everything together. Colossians 1:13-17

Exactly how the roles played out as Father and Son, the Son always does what the Father says and since they are both God along the Holy Spirit, I think its all good.

As far as unity, we are to have unity with other believers, no doubt. Christ did mean unity in John 17 and said so, so I agree with you there. In John 15 he talked about abiding in him as the vine so we produce fruit which is another way we are 'in Christ'. We are not 'in' other believers, but we are all in Christ and in the Father, thus we should be in unity as well. When I say someone is 'in Christ', I mean they have trusted him to have paid for their sins and had his righteousness imputed unto them.

Anyway, I think we are in agreement on most things, so I'm not disagreeing with you on any of this. I'll try to talk more, but its hard for me to answer posts with too much content or questions.

 

[search the scriptures]

Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation. All things were created by him. He created everything in heaven and on earth. He created everything that can be seen and everything that can't be seen. He created kings, powers, rulers and authorities. Everything was created by him and for him. Before anything was created, he was already there. He holds everything together. Colossians 1:13-17

God created the heavens and earth alone and by himself(Isa 44:24 & Neh 9:6) . Jesus created the heavens and earth and all things visible(worldy things) and invisible(angels/heavenly things)

if Jesus is not God and not an angel, what is he?

the trinity:
3 persons who are co equal, co eternal, co powerful, that make up one God -The divine Almighty strength of the universe, the creator JEHOVAH.

Jesus(Gods word) created all things, with the father and the holy spirit. God created all things

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image

one in will, strength, power and rule as one God, JEHOVAH

Gen 1:26 And God said
　
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Hear o israel: JEHOVAH our God(the father, the word, and the holy spirit) one(numeral of "properly united") JEHOVAH

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes I agree that the Father and the Son were present at the creation and I agree that it was Jesus who created all things but I dont agree that it was in the sense that he was the 'Creator'. There is a passage in Prov. 8:27-30 which could only apply to the Son because as we all agree, Jesus was with God in the beginning. But notice how this verse describes Jesus role in the creation as a 'master worker'...this implies that he worked under the direction of his Father in the same way an apprentice works under a tradesperson.
“When [God] prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a horizon upon the face of the surging waters, when he made firm the cloud masses above, . . . when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker and I came to be what he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time.”
with regard to this verse, the translation in some bibles as 'I AM' is quite dubious. The reason being that in Exodus the expression “I AM” is used as a title or a name, and in the Hebrew this expression is the one word Ehyéh . However, in John 8:58 in the greek text the word is Egó eimí which is the same word found at John 8:24, 28 where the King James and the Douay Version and others render it as “I am he”
Now why do they do that at John 8:24 & 28 but not at John 8:58?
And to get the best understanding, its really Hebrew scholars who have it right because they know the hebrew text very well and they do not translate the greek Egó eimí into the hebrew phrase Ehyéh.
Here is how some Hebrew scholars translated the Greek into Hebrew: Dr. Franz Delitzsch: “Before Abraham was, I have been.” Isaac Salkinson and David Ginsburg: “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.” In both cases they use two Hebrew words, aní hayíthi rather then the Hebrew word found at exodus - Ehyéh.
Here are how some english translators correctly put this verse:
Moffatt: “I have existed before Abraham was born.”
Schonfield and An American Translation: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
Stage (German): “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
Pfaefflin (German): “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”
George M. Lamsa, translating from the Syriac Pe****ta, says: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
Dr. James Murdock, also translating from the Syriac Pe****to Version, says: “Before Abraham existed, I was.”
The Brazilian Sacred Bible published by the Catholic Bible Center of São Paulo says: “Before Abraham existed, I was existing.”
Ok, but Jesus said that he wanted his disciples to be one with 'each other'
So how can the disciples be 'in' each other? That doesnt really make too much sense.
It makes much more sense to understand his words to mean that he wanted his disciples to 'in unity' with each other so that they could have a 'oneness of spirit' in the same way that Jesus is in unity with his Father and they have a oneness of spirit.

Good points ^above^ because at John [17vs11,21-23] Jesus prays that his followers may be one just as he and his Father are one.
They were one in belief, purpose, will, agreement, harmony, goal, work, objective, etc. along with one in unity having oneness of spirit.

Also, there are two persons are mentioned at John 17v3.
The only true God 'and' Jesus. 'and' would be in addition to another.
Jesus who was 'with' God [17v4].
Can a person be 'with' another and be that same person?

 

[Bowman]

Where is Jesus in the OT?

He makes His appearance in the Genesis creation account and continues through Revelation.

God uses human terms so that we can understand. He also speaks of his hand, his eye, his foot...but he has none of these physical things...he is a spirit.

Scripture is interpreted by its context.

You cant' miss it...the problem is that is just not there as these references show:


The Encyclopedia of Religion says: “Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.”

Not a very reputable source.

Jesuit Fortman states: “The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.”

Jesus Himself points us to the OT Shema as being the most important....of which, proclailms the Trinity.

The OT is simply packed with Trinitarian scripture.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.”

Another horrible source.

No examples shown either...

Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.”

Examples?

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: “The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. ‘The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence’ [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth].”

Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: “To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it.”—Origin and Evolution of Religion.

Historian Arthur Weigall notes: “Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.


The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology: “Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”

The Paganism in Our Christianity: “The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”

Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics: “At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”

This is like an info-mercial in which all that can be shown are testimonials for a product.

Show me product (i.e. scriptures).

The Trinity can be shown with scripture everytime, sister...

 

[Pegg]

No examples shown either...

Examples?
This is like an info-mercial in which all that can be shown are testimonials for a product.

Show me product (i.e. scriptures).

The Trinity can be shown with scripture everytime, sister...

How can anyone show examples of something that does not exist?

 

[Lawrence Mills]

Hello everybody



my question is : is jesus a god ?

It's clearly stated in the new testament.

 

[Bowman]

How can anyone show examples of something that does not exist?

We have to wonder if the people behind your quotes can even provide scriptures for their position at all...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

He makes His appearance in the Genesis creation account and continues through Revelation.
Scripture is interpreted by its context.
Jesus Himself points us to the OT Shema as being the most important....of which, proclailms the Trinity.
The OT is simply packed with Trinitarian scripture.
The Trinity can be shown with scripture everytime, sister...

Of course Jesus makes his appearance in the Genesis account because as Revelation [3v14b] says Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.

So that stands to reason the created heavenly Jesus being 'first or beginning' would be there at the start with his Father for everything created.
-Col 1vs15,16

According to Psalm 90v2 God is from everlasting to everlasting. In other words, no beginning no end. Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning. The 'Word' [Logos] was not before the beginning, but at the beginning as God's first or beginning creation.

That is why God could send his heavenly Son to earth because his Son was a heavenly creation before God sending him to earth to be born with human perfection before returning to the heavenly realm.
-Hebrews 9vs24-26

Decades, after God resurrected Jesus to heaven,
Jesus, at Rev [2v18], still considers himself to be the Son of God.

Also, there is no Scripture that says Jesus resurrected himself.

 

[Bowman]

Of course Jesus makes his appearance in the Genesis account because as Revelation [3v14b] says Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.

Show us the Greek, brother...

So that stands to reason the created heavenly Jesus being 'first or beginning' would be there at the start with his Father for everything created.
-Col 1vs15,16

According to Psalm 90v2 God is from everlasting to everlasting. In other words, no beginning no end. Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning. The 'Word' [Logos] was not before the beginning, but at the beginning as God's first or beginning creation.

That is why God could send his heavenly Son to earth because his Son was a heavenly creation before God sending him to earth to be born with human perfection before returning to the heavenly realm.
-Hebrews 9vs24-26

None of these verses state that Jesus was created.

Decades, after God resurrected Jesus to heaven,
Jesus, at Rev [2v18], still considers himself to be the Son of God.

There are dozens of epithets applied to Jesus in the Book of Revelation, alone.

Jesus even proclaims, in the first-person singular, that He is God in Revelation.

Also, there is no Scripture that says Jesus resurrected himself.

The New Testament declares the following regarding who raised Jesus from the dead…

· God the Father…Romans 6.4; 10.9; Col 2.11-12; 1 Peter 1.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Acts 2.23-24; 3.14-15; 13.30-37; Hebrews 13.20-21; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10

· God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18

· God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18



Again....the Trinity is proclaimed loud and clear.

 

[javajo]

Amen, Bowman, Amen! Very good!