[ I have one question ]

[Pegg]

None of these verses state that Jesus was created.

Colosians 1:15 KJV 'Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature'

Revelation 3:14 KJV “And unto the angel of the church in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God"

for Jesus to be called the firstborn of every creature and the beginning of Gods creations, it shows that he isnt eternal

the trinity says that all three are eternal.... but these scriptures show otherwise.

 

[javajo]

I think we must agree to disagree on that point. I know Bowman nor I would say Christ was created, for he was begotten not made, the Only Begotten of the Father. Your verse in colossians says he was the first BORN, not first CREATED. Jesus said before Abraham was "I AM", and there are many verses as Bowman showed above where JESUS IS GOD. He is a member of the Godhead or Trinity. Otherwise you have plural Gods and we know there is only one. As far as pulling a doctrine from one phrase "the beginning of the creation of God", you have to look at all the verses that say that Jesus is God, the Only Begotten, He was with God and is God, is from everlasting, as God is, and then see what it really means. It is the same as the phrase that he was the firstborn among many brethren. He was the first to rise from the dead, he is the beginning of the family of God, made up of all who have trusted him for salvation. That's my belief, I'm not really inclined to argue about it.

 

[gnostic]

Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation. All things were created by him. He created everything in heaven and on earth. He created everything that can be seen and everything that can't be seen. He created kings, powers, rulers and authorities. Everything was created by him and for him. Before anything was created, he was already there. He holds everything together. Colossians 1:13-17

Pretty simplistic view.

If Jesus Christ created everything, then he created evilness too, then who needs the Devil?

If he created every rulers and authorities, then he must have created every single the despotic tyrants too, and lying and conniving politicians that ever live.

Sorry, but your quote from Colossians don't make Christ an attractive and benign figure at all if Paul written is true.

 

[Pegg]

I think we must agree to disagree on that point. I know Bowman nor I would say Christ was created, for he was begotten not made, the Only Begotten of the Father. Your verse in colossians says he was the first BORN, not first CREATED. Jesus said before Abraham was "I AM", and there are many verses as Bowman showed above where JESUS IS GOD. He is a member of the Godhead or Trinity. Otherwise you have plural Gods and we know there is only one. As far as pulling a doctrine from one phrase "the beginning of the creation of God", you have to look at all the verses that say that Jesus is God, the Only Begotten, He was with God and is God, is from everlasting, as God is, and then see what it really means. It is the same as the phrase that he was the firstborn among many brethren. He was the first to rise from the dead, he is the beginning of the family of God, made up of all who have trusted him for salvation. That's my belief, I'm not really inclined to argue about it.

Im sure Bowman will be able to clarify this...pls correct me if i'm wrong,
the Greek word John uses over 20 times is ar‧khe′ and they always have the common meaning of “beginning” such as at John 1:1. "In the beginning was the word..." John uses the same word at Rev 3:14. when he says "...the beginning of the creation of God..."

 

[search the scriptures]

"the Greek word John uses over 20 times is ar‧khe′ and they always have the common meaning of “beginning” such as at John 1:1. "In the beginning was the word..." John uses the same word at Rev 3:14. when he says "...the beginning of the creation of God..." "

the word means :
ἀρχή
archē
ar-khay'
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.


other than beginning these are other words used:


magistrates- luke 12:11; power- luke 20:20; corner(s)- Acts 10:11 & 11:5; principalities- Romans 8:38; rule- 1Chorinthians 15:24; principality- Ephesians 1:21 & principalities- Ephesians 3:10 & 6:12; principalities- Colossians 1:16 & 2:15; ; principality- Colossians 2:10; principalities- Titus 3:1; principles- Hebrews 6:1;

 

[search the scriptures]

pegg: "for Jesus to be called the firstborn of every creature and the beginning of Gods creations, it shows that he isnt eternal"

" he isnt eternal"

really? :
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

 

[Bowman]

Amen, Bowman, Amen! Very good!

....

 

[Bowman]

Colosians 1:15 KJV 'Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature'

This first example uses the same key term as that used in Revelation, and emanates at the end of the Triune greeting in chapter One (from Father, Son, & Spirit), as thus…

και απο ιησου χριστου ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος των νεκρων και ο αρχων των βασιλεων της γης τω αγαπωντι ημας και λυσαντι ημας εκ των αμαρτιων [ημων] εν τω αιματι αυτου

Kai apo iesous christos ho martus ho pistos ho prototokos ho nekros kai ho archon ho basileus ho ge ho agapao hemas kai louo hemas ek ho hamartia hemas en ho haima autos

Rev 1.5 and from Jesus Christ, the Witness, the Faithful, the First-born out of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. He, loving us, and washing us from our sins by His blood,



Defining the term…

G4416
πρωτοτοκος
prototokos
Thayer Definition:
1) the firstborn
1a) of man or beast
1b) of Christ, the first born of all creation
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4413 and the alternate of G5088
Citing in TDNT: 6:871, 965



G4413
prōtos
Thayer Definition:
1) first in time or place
1a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
2a) influence, honour
2b) chief
2c) principal
3) first, at the first
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: contracted superlative of G4253
Citing in TDNT: 6:865, 965


As seen, “prototokos” means ‘first’. Not created – but merely ‘first’.

Revelation continues to use this same term showing that Jesus is the way to the Resurrection. He is the Resurrection. The anticipation is that He is the ‘first’ of what will come to follow with His Elect.

 

[Bowman]

Revelation 3:14 KJV “And unto the angel of the church in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God"

Defining the key term…


G746
ἀρχή
archē
Thayer Definition:
1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G756
Citing in TDNT: 1:479, 81




G756
ἄρχομαι
archomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to be the first to do (anything), to begin
2) to be chief, leader, ruler
3) to begin, make a beginning
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice of G757 (through the implication of precedence)
Citing in TDNT: 1:478,*



As you can verify for yourself, this verse is simply re-enforcing what countless other Biblical scriptures teach us – that Jesus is the origin of creation itself.

He is the beginning.

He is the cause.

He is God.

for Jesus to be called the firstborn of every creature and the beginning of Gods creations, it shows that he isnt eternal

the trinity says that all three are eternal.... but these scriptures show otherwise.

Wrong.

The only way that someone can come to the jaded conclusion, which you have posited, is to completely ignore scripture in its whole and completely and utterly fail to study the original languages.

 

[Pegg]

"the Greek word John uses over 20 times is ar‧khe′ and they always have the common meaning of “beginning” such as at John 1:1. "In the beginning was the word..." John uses the same word at Rev 3:14. when he says "...the beginning of the creation of God..." "

the word means :
ἀρχή
archē
ar-khay'
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.


other than beginning these are other words used:


magistrates- luke 12:11; power- luke 20:20; corner(s)- Acts 10:11 & 11:5; principalities- Romans 8:38; rule- 1Chorinthians 15:24; principality- Ephesians 1:21 & principalities- Ephesians 3:10 & 6:12; principalities- Colossians 1:16 & 2:15; ; principality- Colossians 2:10; principalities- Titus 3:1; principles- Hebrews 6:1;

so whats your conclusion with regard to the use of the word 'beginning' at Revelation 3:14 and John 1:1

Is the KJV wrong?

 

[Muffled]

so whats your conclusion with regard to the use of the word 'beginning' at Revelation 3:14 and John 1:1

Is the KJV wrong?

I am not even a biblical scholar and I can see that, the beginning of creation is God. You are trying to say that Jesus is part of the creation but the text never says that.

My NESB retains "beginning" but I like "origen" better since it is less likely to mislead people.

 

[Muffled]

Pretty simplistic view.

If Jesus Christ created everything, then he created evilness too, then who needs the Devil?

If he created every rulers and authorities, then he must have created every single the despotic tyrants too, and lying and conniving politicians that ever live.

Sorry, but your quote from Colossians don't make Christ an attractive and benign figure at all if Paul written is true.

Evil is not a creation; it is an abnegation of Good. God is Good and all that He created is Good.

That does not mean that God created them to be evil but only that he was responsible for them being in power. In a spcae/time continuum where evil is permitted, it is also judged by God.

God is never benign. I would suppose that He is a great terror for those who would do evil. I suppose that means you are on the wrong end of the stick. I find Him attractive because I can count on Him to be Good.

 

[search the scriptures]

"so whats your conclusion with regard to the use of the word 'beginning' at Revelation 3:14 and John 1:1 "


rev 3:14 cheif/head/corner/ruler of the creation of God

with john describing jesus throughout revelation as "pantokratōr" - the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent. [Rev 1:8, Rev 4:8, Rev 11:17, Rev 16:7..]

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Mar 12:10And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:


Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.


Isa 41:4 first
ri'shôn ri'shôn
ree-shone', ree-shone'
From H7221; first, in place, time or rank


Rev 1:11 "first" :
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief

john 1:1

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God

the first beginning(only God/JEHOVAH present)

 

[Pegg]

rev 3:14 cheif/head/corner/ruler of the creation of God

with john describing jesus throughout revelation as "pantokratōr" - the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent. [Rev 1:8, Rev 4:8, Rev 11:17, Rev 16:7..]

well i'd agree that Jesus position in revelation as a ruler is correct, but I cant go so far as to say that he is the Almighty for the reason that there will come a time when Jesus will no longer be in the position

Paul explained how it will pan out in 1Cor 15:24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone

So according to Paul, Jesus will have all things subjected to him for a time, and then Jesus will subject himself to God ....so he can't be the Almighty.


But we could go on with this forever...its been going on now for around 2,000 years and still there is no agreement on the trinity by some christians

so maybe we'll just agree to disagree

 

[search the scriptures]

pegg: "so maybe we'll just agree to disagree"

agreed