I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...

[LuisDantas]

One. But odds are that she will point out how unfair it is of patriarchal society to expect her to.

 

[Nehustan]

How many?

'One...why do you think this sort of thing is some kind of joke?'

 

[Alulu]

I fully agree actually. And I'm a Muslim myself. I would also like to mention that in my opinion all of this goes back to a struggle among Muslims ourselves about what Islam is, and what it is not. A terrorist attack in a cafe in Casablanca (Morocco), the Egyptian soldiers that werd murdered last year in the Sinai by terrorists, the many tombs and graves in Libya and Tunisia that have been burned down or blown up, the murder a couple of months ago of Tunisian socialist politician by an extremist group after he received many death threats as they considered him a disbeliever being a socialist, the continues bombings in public places in Iraq at the hands of "the Islamic State of Iraq"...... All recent examples that are undeniable that it is really time to actively reclaim our faith. The examples are all in countries where the majority of the people are Muslims. So in non-Muslim countries where despicable acts are committed in the name of our religion it is even more important to make sure that Islam is not defined by this small but noisy minority of extremists. I would say it is even a religious duty. Speaking out does not mean only towards non-Muslims, but even more important to fellow Muslims who support these type of acts. I have lived for some time in Europe and have seen myself that there are indeed Muslim groups and preachers with disastrous ideas that are dangerous. Not confronting them is not an option anymore in my opinion.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Those darn White Feminists, always causing trouble!

Sorry, can you explain your point with this?

 

[Aquitaine]

Sorry, can you explain your point with this?

To be honest, it was most-likely a misunderstanding on my behalf. I initially interpreted your comment as suggesting that non-white Feminists prefer not to mix with White ones because they're promiscuous and ignorant. Like the Feminist in that interview you mentioned with the two Muslim women - barking at them to wear makeup, party, and get drunk etc.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

To be honest, it was most-likely a misunderstanding on my behalf. I initially interpreted your comment as suggesting that non-white Feminists prefer not to mix with White ones because they're promiscuous and ignorant. Like the Feminist in that interview you mentioned with the two Muslim women - barking at them to wear makeup, party, and get drunk etc.

It's got nothing to do with promiscuity and everything to do with excluding women of colour from the movement, because they are busy critcising a culture they know very little about and silencing our voices, and muslim women's voices to talk about their own opression,
because they prefer to adopt white male values and and white male sexuality and call that freedom for all women.
I know not all white feminists are like this.

 

[darkendless]

How so? She is right about the pressures western women face and she is British so she knows...

Only to some degree. It's painting with a very broad brush.

 

[Aquitaine]

It's got nothing to do with promiscuity and everything to do with excluding women of colour from the movement, because they are busy critcising a culture they know very little about and silencing our voices, and muslim women's voices to talk about their own opression,
because they prefer to adopt white male values and and white male sexuality and call that freedom for all women.
I know not all white feminists are like this.

Erm.... White Male values? What is White Male Sexuality?

 

[HiddenHijabi]

To be fair, it is much harder to forget or fail to notice the hatred and violence than it is to forget or fail to notice the denounces. That may well be bias, but it is at least a reasonably easy to understand one - if not a needed one.

True, but at the same time balance is key. Much as people don't want to admit it much of the time there's always two sides to every story. Plus I could argue that with the likes of hate preachers or hate groups, all that happens if their name ends up in the papers or on the news, they're given the oxygen of publicity. This goes for both Muslim and non-Muslims.

Quite true. Then again, that is sort of the difficulty here. The terrorism and hatred do not wait for or expect approval from well-educated, well-informed sources either.

Again true, but education could go a long way towards dealing with terrorism by ensuring that those radical elements are dealt with in the first place, and where a terror attack happens, ensuring it is only guilty parties who are targeted and not random, innocent Muslims. The Woolwich attacks were a prime example- rather than concentrating on the hate preachers and on the attackers themselves, a mosque which was nothing to do with the attack was firebombed. Muslims have been randomly attacked simply for being Muslim. If people's energies were focused on dealing with the hate preachers, then they'd likely find that ordinary Muslims such as myself would support them in doing so.

Nice to know about that. Thanks.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Women in the western world Of all religions and none, can chose their own values and life styles.
They need be no longer oppressed by men in any tangible way..........
They choose their own partners
They choose their own religion
they can chose their own further education
They can choose their own health care
They determine their own sexuality
Their life style is their own choice
They choose their own Jobs
They choose their own clothes and how they dress
They chose where to go and what to do in their own time
They choose their own friends


If they are oppressed by their men folk.............
They can choose to divorce them
They can not be forced into marriage
If they are abused they can have the men prosecuted
They are equal to men in every legal way.
Their money and property is their own.

 

[HiddenHijabi]

Islam guarantees women's rights....including the majority of the things on that list. If they are not granted them for whatever reason, then that is the fault of Muslims.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So embarrassing when non Muslim British people pretend to care about Muslim women.

The women of Britain formed the suffragette movement and won for themselves the right to vote, and eventually fought for and won equality under the law with men.
To do this they gained the support the majority of men in parliament and in the political parties.

They won the respect of men.

They won this for all women in Britian... Of what ever religion or none.
Muslim women were not excluded.

It seems British men and women are having to re-fight that battle again, this time on behalf of some Muslim women..... Men and women care equally about equality under the law. This is neither embarrassing nor pretence.
Muslim women "Have those rights here" even if some of their men try to deny them.

 

[HiddenHijabi]

The women of Britain formed the suffragette movement and won for themselves the right to vote, and eventually fought for and won equality under the law with men.
To do this they gained the support the majority of men in parliament and in the political parties.

They won the respect of men.

They won this for all women in Britian... Of what ever religion or none.
Muslim women were not excluded.

It seems British men and women are having to re-fight that battle again, this time on behalf of some Muslim women..... Men and women care equally about equality under the law. This is neither embarrassing nor pretence.
Muslim women "Have those rights here" even if some of their men try to deny them.

This I can understand, but at the same time many non-Muslim Western women seem content to tell Muslim women that they 'can't do' such things as wear long-sleeved clothes or hijab because they don't personally agree with it, and call it 'oppressive' even where said Muslimah doesn't think so and where she personally desires to wear full-length abayas/hijab or whatever. In many cases, Muslim women who are making their own free choices as to their own lives are then being told that they shouldn't do that in the name of 'liberation'.

If you truly want freedom for Muslim women, or even just women generally, then you cannot impose your values on people. freedom of women can take many forms, and for me personally, that freedom comes through Islam. Rigid dogmas are useless, in any form.

 

[Sakeenah]

This I can understand, but at the same time many non-Muslim Western women seem content to tell Muslim women that they 'can't do' such things as wear long-sleeved clothes or hijab because they don't personally agree with it, and call it 'oppressive' even where said Muslimah doesn't think so and where she personally desires to wear full-length abayas/hijab or whatever. In many cases, Muslim women who are making their own free choices as to their own lives are then being told that they shouldn't do that in the name of 'liberation'.

If you truly want freedom for Muslim women, or even just women generally, then you cannot impose your values on people. freedom of women can take many forms, and for me personally, that freedom comes through Islam. Rigid dogmas are useless, in any form.

yes I agree wit you sis..for me it would be okay if people would tell me what they think in a respectful matter. That way you can explain your point of view.
But it gets annoying when people start verbally abusing you or looking at you with anger/hatred.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

yes I agree wit you sis..for me it would be okay if people would tell me what they think in a respectful matter. That way you can explain your point of view.
But it gets annoying when people start verbally abusing you or looking at you with anger/hatred.

I do not find it necessary to tell Muslim women how to dress or what to think. It is entirely up to them.
However I object when Christian men tell Christian women how to dress or think.
I would also object if Muslim men said these things to Muslim women.

Muslim women are entirely free to make up their own minds about these things.

In the 50's and 60's very many Muslim people came over to the UK to find Jobs.
They all chose to wear British clothing and mixed with the general population, None of them chose the Arab style dress, though they were perfectly free to do so.
It is only in recent years that this has become a problem .

Women from India that moved here at the same time, both Sikh and Hindu sometimes chose Indian dress and some times British, as they do now, but as they fully integrated into the community it was never a problem.

Europeans do find it some what threatening and insulting if people fully hide their faces, it has always been culturally unacceptable.
If Muslim women restricted themselves to a wimple like a nun wears it would be respected and there would be no problem, even if it is rather old fashioned.

 

[Octavia156]

Islam guarantees women's rights....including the majority of the things on that list. If they are not granted them for whatever reason, then that is the fault of Muslims.

Islam guarantees womens rights!?
Don't make me laugh....


The fact that Muslim men request their women cover their faces says everything about Muslim men - they can't control themselves.
At least western men (for the majority) can enjoy the beauty of a woman without feeling they have the right to rape her because she's baring an ounce of flesh.

 

[Octavia156]

Muslim women are entirely free to make up their own minds about these things.

In UK perhaps... but of the 0.8billion Muslim women on the planet - how many do you think are free to make up their minds?

 

[Assad91]

The fact that Muslim men request their women cover their faces says everything about Muslim men - they can't control themselves.

Hm. I thought you didn't like generalizing whole people.

At least western men (for the majority) can enjoy the beauty of a woman without feeling they have the right to rape her because she's baring an ounce of flesh.

Yet how much rape and rape culture is there?

 

[Aquitaine]

Hm. I thought you didn't like generalizing whole people.



Yet how much rape and rape culture is there?

Rape and Rape culture? Everywhere. It isn't only a "Western" problem.

 

[Assad91]

Rape and Rape culture? Everywhere. It isn't only a "Western" problem.

Yet she generalized Muslim men as people who make women cover their faces and can't control themselves when looking at women. And praised western men, yet some western men as well rape women, and even with the liberal dress of western women, western men still rape and depict women in an unflattering way.

Yet according to some, only Muslim men can't control themselves