I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Whilst the pressure of "western" women to dress a certain way are indeed very (painfully) true, women all over the world are under similar pressures to appease someone else - albeit usually Men.

There's just as many women under pressure to wear the Hijab as there are to take it off, unfortunately. So I think the pressures are a global thing, not just a "western" thing.

Have you read my signature...I know, it's just that western feminists have mostly been doing the finger pointing of "look how Muslim men are so horrid to Muslim women, there there, let me just snatch that hijab from you, so you can be free like one of us, while I break my ankle in these high heels."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... western feminists have mostly been doing the finger pointing of "look how Muslim men are so horrid to Muslim women, there there, let me just snatch that hijab from you, so you can be free like one of us, while I break my ankle in these high heels."

:clap

 

[HiddenHijabi]

And apparently you are responsible for terrorists and should consider changing your religion because of them!?

At least hijab doesn't hurt you and restrict your freedom of movement like high heels do!

Terrorism doesn't respect the borders of religion.

Whilst the pressure of "western" women to dress a certain way are indeed very (painfully) true, women all over the world are under similar pressures to appease someone else - albeit usually Men.

There's just as many women under pressure to wear the Hijab as there are to take it off, unfortunately. So I think the pressures are a global thing, not just a "western" thing.

I can't speak for those women who may be forced to wear hijab, but for those who choose to wear it, what I say applies. I can only speak for Western culture because that's the only thing I've experienced.

Open up a women's magazine. What do you find? Articles on make-up and the latest fashion which idealises size 0 and often dangerous thinness as being somehow glamourous, as well as encouraging women that being 'sexy' is somehow the only goal their dress and look should aspire to. Articles about lifestyle (including sex) which paint a fairytale picture of a brilliant sex life, high-flying career and perfect social life/perfect home life. Adverts which promise women anti-aging effects. How many women are truly able to live this dream? I'd say close to none. Most women are ordinary people who aren't size 6, argue with their husands, have children throwing tantrums, have issues with their work, including lack of money, and don't spend their weekends in glamourous London skyscraper bars with friends to socialise or throwing 19 course dinner parties. It's little more than fantasy and one which many women found Islam provides a solace from.

Have you read my signature...I know, it's just that western feminists have mostly been doing the finger pointing of "look how Muslim men are so horrid to Muslim women, there there, let me just snatch that hijab from you, so you can be free like one of us, while I break my ankle in these high heels."

I must agree with this. I can remember watching a talkshow which was talking about Islam as a way of life and which perfectly demonstrated your point, as this representative from some feminist group virtually from the moment that she was given chance to speak went on some offensive which your post paraphrases pretty well, although she also made several attacks on the idea of there being a God too. What made this more ludicrous was that both the Muslim women featured on the talkshow were converts who'd made the conscious, free decision to be Muslim. One of them was just 19, and this feminist seemed adamant that because of this, she was stupid to be Muslim when she should be drinking and partying and wearing tons of make-up, not getting up at dawn to pray and walking around dressed in a black abaya and hijab.

 

[LuisDantas]

Terrorism doesn't respect the borders of religion.

Nor is it unrelated, though. And that, I feel, is the valid core of this thread.

Shouldn't more of a clear effort be made to discourage or denounce those who use or distort Islamic beliefs to justify violence and terrorism?

I think that this is a fair, necessary question to ask. And the people who have the more reason to ask it are the Muslims themselves, who are suffering a lot of misconceptions and mistrust that could be avoided.

 

[Assad91]

We should do what others have done. Stigmatize salafism. Close the masjids and schools who have ties to Saudi Arabia.

But wait, that'll hurt diplomatic ties to the Kingdom, the last think America seems to want. I wonder, what benefits they gain to be worthy of being hypocritical and stupid. Not only allowing extremism, but also looking like fools for condeming Iran but not Saudi Arabia.

 

[LuisDantas]

We should do what others have done. Stigmatize salafism. Close the masjids and schools who have ties to Saudi Arabia.

But wait, that'll hurt diplomatic ties to the Kingdom, the last think America seems to want. I wonder, what benefits they gain to be worthy of being hypocritical and stupid. Not only allowing extremism, but also looking like fools for condeming Iran but not Saudi Arabia.

If I understood you correctly, it seems that a good approach would be to disseminate more information about what Salafism (and Wahhabism?) are and what kind of criticism should be directed at them.

Even if it turns out that you are correct in your worries that political reasons make significant official policy changes unlikely, building public opinion support for those changes is pretty much necessary and likely to have other important benefits as well.

Although I wonder, how much of a tie to Saudi Arabia can groups that aren't actually there have?

 

[Aquitaine]

I can't speak for those women who may be forced to wear hijab, but for those who choose to wear it, what I say applies. I can only speak for Western culture because that's the only thing I've experienced.

Open up a women's magazine. What do you find? Articles on make-up and the latest fashion which idealises size 0 and often dangerous thinness as being somehow glamourous, as well as encouraging women that being 'sexy' is somehow the only goal their dress and look should aspire to. Articles about lifestyle (including sex) which paint a fairytale picture of a brilliant sex life, high-flying career and perfect social life/perfect home life. Adverts which promise women anti-aging effects. How many women are truly able to live this dream? I'd say close to none. Most women are ordinary people who aren't size 6, argue with their husands, have children throwing tantrums, have issues with their work, including lack of money, and don't spend their weekends in glamourous London skyscraper bars with friends to socialise or throwing 19 course dinner parties. It's little more than fantasy and one which many women found Islam provides a solace from.

Whilst I share your concerns with this country's adoption of American beauty and fashion culture, I've seen this trait in other countries too. I've even read Islamic articles about how to be a good wife etc.

I disagree that Islam provides solace from being told how to live your life - I mean seriously, one is just swapping one controlling lifestyle for another one.

 

[Assad91]

If I understood you correctly, it seems that a good approach would be to disseminate more information about what Salafism (and Wahhabism?) are and what kind of criticism should be directed at them.

Even if it turns out that you are correct in your worries that political reasons make significant official policy changes unlikely, building public opinion support for those changes is pretty much necessary and likely to have other important benefits as well.

Although I wonder, how much of a tie to Saudi Arabia can groups that aren't actually there have?

Saudi Arabia funds masjids, schools, bookstores, publishing corporations, etc. They essentially have an almost monopoly here where I live. Philadelphia is know as "Salafi-central". Some even call a certain part "Little Riyad".

You can not tell me the American Government is too stupid to know what is going on. It is the salafi (aka wahabism) that teaches people to hate kufr, to stay away from them, to even go as far as to hold no love for your own parents if they are not Muslim. They preach to hate democracy, and to never take part in it. And it is those salafis who commit terrorism, who in some places of the world, kill other muslims. They lie to converts and ignorant people into thinking they are the only "true muslims", and that everyone else is a deviant. They are even against secular education. They are a stain on Islam. Just like their predecessors, the Khawariji

 

[Sha'irullah]

We should do what others have done. Stigmatize salafism. Close the masjids and schools who have ties to Saudi Arabia.

But wait, that'll hurt diplomatic ties to the Kingdom, the last think America seems to want. I wonder, what benefits they gain to be worthy of being hypocritical and stupid. Not only allowing extremism, but also looking like fools for condeming Iran but not Saudi Arabia.

Sadly this is the issue I worry about. America is highly ignorant on the things it does and turns social (religious) matters a blind eye. I doubt any of them are aware of Saudi Arabiyah's ideological involvement in extremism.
If any US politician was then the right wing nuts would have found out about this and be ranting against it non stop. But no such action has happened as far as I know of.
This just shows how ignorant American politics are

 

[Sakeenah]

Saudi Arabia funds masjids, schools, bookstores, publishing corporations, etc. They essentially have an almost monopoly here where I live. Philadelphia is know as "Salafi-central". Some even call a certain part "Little Riyad".

You can not tell me the American Government is too stupid to know what is going on. It is the salafi (aka wahabism) that teaches people to hate kufr, to stay away from them, to even go as far as to hold no love for your own parents if they are not Muslim. They preach to hate democracy, and to never take part in it. And it is those salafis who commit terrorism, who in some places of the world, kill other muslims. They lie to converts and ignorant people into thinking they are the only "true muslims", and that everyone else is a deviant. They are even against secular education. They are a stain on Islam. Just like their predecessors, the Khawariji

Brother what you are doing now is exactly what we as muslims criticize people for doing..judging islam(salafiyah) based on the actions of some muslim(salafis).

Yes there are people who claim to be salafi and preach hate but this can be said for any other sect/religion. And even within those who call themselves 'salafi' you will see a lot of difference.It's mostly the 'salafi-jihadis' who commit terrorism and are often called takfiris or khawaarij. Most salafis who have a good understanding of salafiyah condemn their actions and warn against them.

For those who are confused by the term salafis..it simply means those who follow The Quran and the Sunnah (methodology of the prophet)according to the understanding of the first 3 generation (the prophet and his companions and the 2 generations after it)
So if a muslim follows the Quran and Sunnah in other words he/she is a salafi even though he/she might not use the term 'salafi'.

I do not believe 'salafis' say you can't love your parents if they are non muslims. You should always be kind and loving towards your parents. Salafis teach that as Muslims we should respect the rules and laws of the country we are in.
But that doesn't mean you have to assimilate, you can still practice your religion be a salafi and be a good citizen.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Brother what you are doing now is exactly what we as muslims criticize people for doing..judging islam(salafiyah) based on the actions of some muslim(salafis).

Yes there are people who claim to be salafi and preach hate but this can be said for any other sect/religion. And even within those who call themselves 'salafi' you will see a lot of difference.It's mostly the 'salafi-jihadis' who commit terrorism and are often called takfiris or khawaarij. Most salafis who have a good understanding of salafiyah condemn their actions and warn against them.

For those who are confused by the term salafis..it simply means those who follow The Quran and the Sunnah (methodology of the prophet)according to the understanding of the first 3 generation (the prophet and his companions and the 2 generations after it)
So if a muslim follows the Quran and Sunnah in other words he/she is a salafi even though he/she might not use the term 'salafi'.

I do not believe 'salafis' say you can't love your parents if they are non muslims. You should always be kind and loving towards your parents. Salafis teach that as Muslims we should respect the rules and laws of the country we are in.
But that doesn't mean you have to assimilate, you can still practice your religion be a salafi and be a good citizen.

Salafi'yah is nothing more but a cultural foundation of Islam along with Wahabbiya. I may not agree with Islam and its ideology but by far it will not exist with these to on board and both are not far removed from the other.
You obviously do not know much about Salafi viewpoints and their anti-Human agenda. I should know because I was groomed by them. According to most Salafi you must divorce your spouse if you are in a relationship and convert to Islam. They also teach the inferiority of non-Muslims to Muslims and have an astounding viewpoint that being Arab makes one a "chosen race". It is nothing but bu Saudi culturalism mixed with religion.
Look at what Saudiyyah Arabiya does and that is Salafism/Wahabbism. Salafism is nothing but a watered down and meshed export of extreme Saudi Islam for the masses.
There is nothing wrong with Islam but there is something wrong with the Salafi label trying to claim dominion over it.

 

[HiddenHijabi]

Nor is it unrelated, though. And that, I feel, is the valid core of this thread.

Shouldn't more of a clear effort be made to discourage or denounce those who use or distort Islamic beliefs to justify violence and terrorism?

I think that this is a fair, necessary question to ask. And the people who have the more reason to ask it are the Muslims themselves, who are suffering a lot of misconceptions and mistrust that could be avoided.

There's been scholar after scholar and campaign after campaign by various Muslim groups, including the Ahmadhiyya Muslim group, to promote the anti-terrorist message of Islam. But the likes of the mainstream media are unlikely to promote this given their biases, even in liberal media. The person on the street is unlikely to have undertaken any major religious studies which allow them to make an educated (key word here) analysis and conclusion regarding the subject of Islam and terrorism, or religion and terrorism, not forgetting the political and social factors which feed into this.

There are also many examples where radicalization is being dealt with by the Muslim community, which again goes unheard. In Canada, moderate imams are going into prisons as chaplains in order to both de-radicalize inmates, but also guide those who may be targeted by the radical preachers for conversion to their cause.

 

[Sakeenah]

Salafi'yah is nothing more but a cultural foundation of Islam along with Wahabbiya. I may not agree with Islam and its ideology but by far it will not exist with these to on board and both are not far removed from the other.
You obviously do not know much about Salafi viewpoints and their anti-Human agenda. I should know because I was groomed by them. According to most Salafi you must divorce your spouse if you are in a relationship and convert to Islam. They also teach the inferiority of non-Muslims to Muslims and have an astounding viewpoint that being Arab makes one a "chosen race". It is nothing but bu Saudi culturalism mixed with religion.
Look at what Saudiyyah Arabiya does and that is Salafism/Wahabbism. Salafism is nothing but a watered down and meshed export of extreme Saudi Islam for the masses.
There is nothing wrong with Islam but there is something wrong with the Salafi label trying to claim dominion over it.

I do know about salafi viewpoints..and I think you were groomed by a group of salafis with extreme viewpoints. I do not believe there's such a thing called 'wahabism'..and if there is then salafiya and 'wahabism' is the same. Because salafis teach the books in islamic creed of Muhammed in abdulwahaab.
Salafis do not teach that a non muslim is inferior we are all the creations of God and guidance is in His hands. An Arab isn't better then a non Arab nor is white better then black,it's piety which matters. And you should know that most of the early and well known scholars in Islam aren't Arabs.

Saudi Arabia isn't Salafism.... yes they practice certain element of Salafism. But they leave and take what they want and mix it with their culture.
I think it's important for those who truelly want to understand the salafis point of view should try to go in a normal dialogue with them. You will see that the majority are normal muslims and citizens who try to practice Islam in a way they see is correct.

 

[LuisDantas]

There's been scholar after scholar and campaign after campaign by various Muslim groups, including the Ahmadhiyya Muslim group, to promote the anti-terrorist message of Islam. But the likes of the mainstream media are unlikely to promote this given their biases, even in liberal media.

To be fair, it is much harder to forget or fail to notice the hatred and violence than it is to forget or fail to notice the denounces. That may well be bias, but it is at least a reasonably easy to understand one - if not a needed one.

The person on the street is unlikely to have undertaken any major religious studies which allow them to make an educated (key word here) analysis and conclusion regarding the subject of Islam and terrorism, or religion and terrorism, not forgetting the political and social factors which feed into this.

Quite true. Then again, that is sort of the difficulty here. The terrorism and hatred do not wait for or expect approval from well-educated, well-informed sources either.

There are also many examples where radicalization is being dealt with by the Muslim community, which again goes unheard. In Canada, moderate imams are going into prisons as chaplains in order to both de-radicalize inmates, but also guide those who may be targeted by the radical preachers for conversion to their cause.

Nice to know about that. Thanks.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Saudi Arabia isn't Salafism.... yes they practice certain element of Salafism. But they leave and take what they want and mix it with their culture.
I think it's important for those who truelly want to understand the salafis point of view should try to go in a normal dialogue with them. You will see that the majority are normal muslims and citizens who try to practice Islam in a way they see is correct.

This is Salafism. Salafism is the mixing of Wahabbi ideology with Saudi culture (specifically its false governmental theocracy). Some disagree on the true nature of Salafism but regardless it has the same issue. Salafiyya is bad and is bad for Muslim and non-Muslim. I have been around some local Jamaah and no matter who they are there is always a Salafi inspired group who are void of common intellect. They prey on weaker distraught Muslims and gain headway in this manner. Salafism is not what you think it is. You cannot defend all Muslims and all viewpoints because they are Islamic inspired or populated by Muslims.
Salafi/Wahabbi ideology is the most connected source associated with Islamic terrorism and insurgency. If the amount is 80% then you cannot ignore it. Even Deobandi pashtungs were inspired by Saudi Wahabbism. The admiration given to them lead to many fashioning their own ideology based from these principles. Wherever Salafism goes it creates chaos. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing running around in the pastures of Islam and ignoring it solves nothing.

 

[Assad91]

Brother what you are doing now is exactly what we as muslims criticize people for doing..judging islam(salafiyah) based on the actions of some muslim(salafis).

No. See you equate Salafism with Islam, when its merely an off shoot. I welcome you, and anyone else, to my thread in Islam DIR titled Muhammad ibn Abd Wahhab. Who was tne founder of Salafism, hence its derogatory name Wahhabism.

It started off violent, and has continued to contain violence outside of the traditional boundaries.

Despite the moderates attempt to reform it, it still stands as problematic to the Ummah and to the world.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I must agree with this. I can remember watching a talkshow which was talking about Islam as a way of life and which perfectly demonstrated your point, as this representative from some feminist group virtually from the moment that she was given chance to speak went on some offensive which your post paraphrases pretty well, although she also made several attacks on the idea of there being a God too. What made this more ludicrous was that both the Muslim women featured on the talkshow were converts who'd made the conscious, free decision to be Muslim. One of them was just 19, and this feminist seemed adamant that because of this, she was stupid to be Muslim when she should be drinking and partying and wearing tons of make-up, not getting up at dawn to pray and walking around dressed in a black abaya and hijab.

This is why women of colour feminists sometimes organise away from/separately from white/liberal feminists.

I've also thought that for some Muslim women hijab isn't necessarily just about modesty, but also about identity. It's a way of visibly expressing that they are Muslim?

 

[Aquitaine]

This is why women of colour feminists sometimes organise away from/separately from white/liberal feminists.

Those darn White Feminists, always causing trouble!

 

[Nehustan]

How many feminists does it take to change a light-bulb?

 

[Aquitaine]

How many feminists does it take to change a light-bulb?

How many?