I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...

[Octavia156]

When certain verses were revealed, there was war between the muslims and the nonbelievers, as the pagan arabs were trying to oppress the muslims. If you knew this, then maybe you would know the context of some verses



And christians say non-christians will go to hell. Any different?


I believe the OT says similar Still, what do you take it to mean?

This debate, if you have the time to watch it, (its long) asks - why do we not have the same issues with the war-like verses in the OT as we do with similar verses in the Qu'ran.

Its more Hitchens so apologies for that

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/148624-islam-religion-peace-debate-watch.html

You might find it interesting if you've not seen it already.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It looks like the government is going to crack down on the extreme clerics who are preaching terrorism. Unfortunately it might require some law changes.
Clearly some thing needs to be done.

 

[Assad91]

This debate, if you have the time to watch it, (its long) asks - why do we not have the same issues with the war-like verses in the OT as we do with similar verses in the Qu'ran.

Its more Hitchens so apologies for that

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/148624-islam-religion-peace-debate-watch.html

You might find it interesting if you've not seen it already.

No, I am not watching a video. You asked about many verses, and I answered them, with links proving your interpretation of them was completely wrong. Stop this nonsense of trying to keep your stupid false interpretations, and answer the hundreds of unanswered questions directed towards you.

 

[Octavia156]

Why not take a break from further rabid quote-mining at least long enough to respond to post #172?

There are no quotes in Post #177 !? So why tell me to stop my rabid quote-mining?

You really like a dog with a bone!

Every word in my post (yes I apologise again for not posting my sources the first time around) came from one of the 3 links i gave you in Post #144
If it didn't come from the Wiki links, it came from the CBN link, quotes were cut and pasted together! - why are you so obsessed by this!?

 

[Octavia156]

No, I am not watching a video. You asked about many verses, and I answered them, with links proving your interpretation of them was completely wrong. Stop this nonsense of trying to keep your stupid false interpretations, and answer the hundreds of unanswered questions directed towards you.

Sorry I'm losing track, posts are coming in so fast! Would you mind listing the questions I've not answered...?



Ok, don't watch it then, its one of your scholars vs one of mine so I thought you'd find it interesting.... but I gues you'd prefer to :ignore:
and try to be respectful and mature, swearing at me etc is not helping your credibility. I've not sworn at you once.

 

[Debater Slayer]

A mix of Ali and Pickthall I believe.

Okay, so how does taking verses out of context, misinterpreting them, saying that Muslims should oppose extremists and then accusing Muslim leaders who do so of possibly lying because they're supposedly "allowed" to do that according to Islam help anything? Do you honestly think such attitude would change anything for the better on either side?

 

[Assad91]

Ok, don't watch it then, its one of your scholars vs one of mine so I thought you'd find it interesting.... but I gues you'd prefer to :ignore:

What use would it do for me to listion to a supposed scholar of mine (when this happen?) vs yours? Again, irrelevant inflammatory nonsense.

 

[Assad91]

Sorry I'm losing track, posts are coming in so fast! Would you mind listing the questions I've not answered...?

You can start with answering the questions in post 179

 

[oldbadger]

It looks like the government is going to crack down on the extreme clerics who are preaching terrorism. Unfortunately it might require some law changes.
Clearly some thing needs to be done.

Hi.......

They will crack down on anyone who incites any kinds of public disorder, terrorism, murder, assault........ basically any crimes at all.

They've already got this (Criminal Attempts Act 1981) which makes it an offence to incite any crime, but obviously the legal wallers want to tie it up tighter than that. They probably think that old Act is a bit wishy washy for this.

Anybody at all who incites any kind of crimes, anywhere, even in their frigging lounge, needs to get sorted, so long as the evidence is clear. That includes anybody.

What do you think?

 

[oldbadger]

If it didn't come from the Wiki links, it came from the CBN link, quotes were cut and pasted together! - why are you so obsessed by this!?

Hi again...... I'm back for a bit but needs breaks from this kind of thread. I don't have your bottom. D)

Yes, some members are somewhat obsessed with Source declaration.

Ummm..... 2 + 2 = uuuummmmm 4!

SOURCE!!!! SOURCE!!!

Ummm...... Errrr Miss Wells. Form 1a. Alveston Church of England Primary School. Stratford upon Avon, Warwickshire. England. The World.

....ummmmmm..... I think.

 

[oldbadger]

Okay, so how does taking verses out of context, misinterpreting them, saying that Muslims should oppose extremists and then accusing Muslim leaders who do so of possibly lying because they're supposedly "allowed" to do that according to Islam help anything? Do you honestly think such attitude would change anything for the better on either side?

Hi...... I know that this isn't for me to answer, but let me have a go anyway ?

Just now, Muslim Leaders in Britain must be in a very very difficult position. I would go further than that.... they could (personally) be in a very dangerous place. I can't think of anybody anywhere that would want to shoulder the responsibility that they carry at this time.

Whichever way they move they will be criticised by somebody somewhere. I believe that they have appealed for calm 'everywhere', but beyond that I just don't know what they could do.

A wrong sentence might unseat them, in any direction. Under these circumstances, when it is so difficult to choose a sentence, a spokesperson might make a mistake and later need to recant. I am guessing that this is what lingered in another member's mind at point of posting.

I have not been following the news for 24 hours, but believe that a similar attack was carried out upon a French soldier. Will the members who have been posting details of deaths within combat zones be posting up the losses in, say, Mali now?

 

[Assad91]

Just now, Muslim Leaders in Britain must be in a very very difficult position. I would go further than that.... they could (personally) be in a very dangerous place. I can't think of anybody anywhere that would want to shoulder the responsibility that they carry at this time.

Whichever way they move they will be criticised by somebody somewhere. I believe that they have appealed for calm 'everywhere', but beyond that I just don't know what they could do.

A wrong sentence might unseat them, in any direction. Under these circumstances, when it is so difficult to choose a sentence, a spokesperson might make a mistake and later need to recant. I am guessing that this is what lingered in another member's mind at point of posting.

Well thanks to "Islam is evil" crowd, innocent Muslims are being attacked, and I wouldn't be surprised if some posters here wouldn't mind. Another poster already shows they want all Muslims out of their country.

 

[Sha'irullah]

A 1h30 video...
He's not an international famous Sheikh just because some people uploaded some of his videos or talked about him in forums.
It doesn't mean the majority of muslims know him.



Proof ?
I suggest you to know much more the muslims before making such claims.

If you don't like Islam or muslims it's your right.
If you've had bad experiences with some muslims and you're angry, it's ok.

But don't generalise and don't talk about things you're not sure or don't know enought about.

I have spent my time with Muslims in person and I have spent my life as a Muslim. Please know what you say before accusing me of anything. Bilal Philips is more then enough of a well known guy, he even has his own wiki page. But I am merely using him as an example only to make a point.
I can find dirt on numerous shaykhs and well received Islamic figures. It is not incredibly hard. You know these things are true and you are proving my point exactly. You refuse to denounce any authoritative figure even if it is not your own.

I see muslims quoting hadith Riyahd as-Salihin narrated by Umar ibn al-Khat'tab "When a man says to his brother, 'O unbeliever,' one of them returns with that ascription applying to him. If it is not as the one who said it said, it reverts to him."

This insights regret for a Muslim to cast down another Muslim. The Muslim who calls another Muslim a kafir is more likely to go to hell. I know the tactics used to manipulate Muslims and the fact you just abide by them is seriously disheartening.

 

[Octavia156]

Okay, so how does taking verses out of context, misinterpreting them, saying that Muslims should oppose extremists and then accusing Muslim leaders who do so of possibly lying because they're supposedly "allowed" to do that according to Islam help anything? Do you honestly think such attitude would change anything for the better on either side?

yeh point taken here - i set up a lose-lose.

Luis did already point that out and I agree it was an irrelevant unhelpful point

 

[Assad91]

I have spent my time with Muslims in person and I have spent my life as a Muslim. Please know what you say before accusing me of anything. Bilal Philips is more then enough of a well known guy, he even has his own wiki page. But I am merely using him as an example only to make a point.
I can find dirt on numerous shaykhs and well received Islamic figures. It is not incredibly hard. You know these things are true and you are proving my point exactly. You refuse to denounce any authoritative figure even if it is not your own.

I see muslims quoting hadith Riyahd as-Salihin narrated by Umar ibn al-Khat'tab "When a man says to his brother, 'O unbeliever,' one of them returns with that ascription applying to him. If it is not as the one who said it said, it reverts to him."

This insights regret for a Muslim to cast down another Muslim. The Muslim who calls another Muslim a kafir is more likely to go to hell. I know the tactics used to manipulate Muslims and the fact you just abide by them is seriously disheartening.

Oh bullcrap. That hadith is about making takfir unlawfully. Any no one will claim Bilal Phillips to be kafr unless he has made an act of kufar. Most I see is he is another annoying "salafi" preacher who thinks all other muslims are deviants, or even kafrs. Frankly, he isn't important enough to even worry about as he is jsut a youtube preacher like milkshaykh.

 

[Pastek]

I have spent my time with Muslims in person and I have spent my life as a Muslim. Please know what you say before accusing me of anything.

I wasn't accusing you of "anything".
You said that "no muslims" will stand against a sheikh because we can't say nothing about them and follow them whatever they say.
Which is not true and I can provide links about that subject.

Bilal Philips is more then enough of a well known guy, he even has his own wiki page.

So ? Do you know that people from reality tv have their own wiki page ?

I can find dirt on numerous shaykhs and well received Islamic figures. It is not incredibly hard. You know these things are true and you are proving my point exactly. You refuse to denounce any authoritative figure even if it is not your own.

Because i don't listened to him !
I don't listen to sheikhs in general like i told you in the post about music some days ago.
I said clearly (and i'm not the only muslim) that i don't listen to them (well, rarely) because i prefer to read books.
Like Assad, i just saw some of his 5mn videos. So i will not blame him just to please you when i don't know him that well.

This insights regret for a Muslim to cast down another Muslim. The Muslim who calls another Muslim a kafir is more likely to go to hell. I know the tactics used to manipulate Muslims and the fact you just abide by them is seriously disheartening.

What are you talking about ?
I never talked about "kaffer" in any post.
And if you talk about Bilal Philips, i don't know what he said about that subject, i don't listen to him.

 

[Sakeenah]

I have spent my time with Muslims in person and I have spent my life as a Muslim. Please know what you say before accusing me of anything. Bilal Philips is more then enough of a well known guy, he even has his own wiki page. But I am merely using him as an example only to make a point.
I can find dirt on numerous shaykhs and well received Islamic figures. It is not incredibly hard. You know these things are true and you are proving my point exactly. You refuse to denounce any authoritative figure even if it is not your own.

I see muslims quoting hadith Riyahd as-Salihin narrated by Umar ibn al-Khat'tab "When a man says to his brother, 'O unbeliever,' one of them returns with that ascription applying to him. If it is not as the one who said it said, it reverts to him."

This insights regret for a Muslim to cast down another Muslim. The Muslim who calls another Muslim a kafir is more likely to go to hell. I know the tactics used to manipulate Muslims and the fact you just abide by them is seriously disheartening.

You forgot to mention that shaykh Bilal Philips used to teach US military personnel who were stationed in Saudi Arabia about the culture and practices of Muslims.And about 2000 military personnel accepter Islam in the 90

I think shaykh Bilal Philips is a preacher who isn't an extremist..and I would recommend everyone to listen to his full lectures about the basics of Islam.
This is a lecture about Islam and Terrorism:

[youtube]BzTcJMz0xN0[/youtube]
Islam and Terrorism - Contemporary Issues - Dr. Bilal Philips - YouTube

 

[Sha'irullah]

You forgot to mention that shaykh Bilal Philips used to teach US military personnel who were stationed in Saudi Arabia about the culture and practices of Muslims.And about 2000 military personnel accepter Islam in the 90

I think shaykh Bilal Philips is a preacher who isn't an extremist..and I would recommend everyone to listen to his full lectures about the basics of Islam.
This is a lecture about Islam and Terrorism:

[youtube]BzTcJMz0xN0[/youtube]
Islam and Terrorism - Contemporary Issues - Dr. Bilal Philips - YouTube

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/148275-bilal-phillips-extremist-not.html

I believe my point is valid. You are still going to support him after this and try to refute his comments which support death and extremism. He is trying to justify the actions of others instead of denouncing them. These actions range from advocating violence to hatred. Take your pick.

But again this is not about Bilal and he is just being used as an example. If you like him or hate him it does not matter. I am not criticizing anyone if they do although I find it peculiar. Far too much leniency is being given if you ask me.

 

[oldbadger]

Well thanks to "Islam is evil" crowd, innocent Muslims are being attacked, and I wouldn't be surprised if some posters here wouldn't mind. Another poster already shows they want all Muslims out of their country.

This was your response to my post, about just how difficult the situation is at this time for Senior Muslim Clerics in Britain.

Diplomacy .0/10
Conflict reduction .0/10

Discussing anything with you is going to be a waste of effort. I won't be answering any more of your posts, matey.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I wasn't accusing you of "anything".
You said that "no muslims" will stand against a sheikh because we can't say nothing about them and follow them whatever they say.
Which is not true and I can provide links about that subject.

Indeed many do not follow religious authority but that is not what I am referring to. I am talking about shunning them for unlawful actions which usually include Islamism. But not many Muslims have an issue with Islamic fundamentalism creating mischief apparently or else they would not be denouncing the source. The fact that Raheem Green can get a room filled with roughly 400-500 people is frightening considering the things he preaches.

In all honesty I have never recalled much scriptural reference that refers to clergy. Correct me if I am wrong. But I have never found anything significant that gives reference to scholars or shaykhs of any kind. This confuses me really.

So ? Do you know that people from reality tv have their own wiki page ?

Did you know that people from reality tv only get wiki pages because they are famous and have millions of followers? :biglaugh:.
Anwar al-Awlaki must be really well received judging from his wiki page .

Because i don't listened to him !
I don't listen to sheikhs in general like i told you in the post about music some days ago.
I said clearly (and i'm not the only muslim) that i don't listen to them (well, rarely) because i prefer to read books.
Like Assad, i just saw some of his 5mn videos. So i will not blame him just to please you when i don't know him that well.

I am not asking you to do anything about him. I am not even asking you to condemn him as I am sure you are a nice person. I am just stating that there are millions of Muslims who listen to some sort of corrupt propaganda and this spreads as it is accepted. Only a small majority will act upon it but it lets chaos breed.
In America we have numerous foundations that criticize and take note of corruption in churches which primarily includes questionable salaries. Most organization such as this do not exist for Muslims because nobody wishes to criticize wrong doing especially if it involves ruining the peace.
I assume you are young, right? The youth of Islam are going to have to push the gears to get Islam to progress more int his day and age. So many do not want this and use religious fundamentalism to halt it.
Islam has continuously progressed until somewhere int he 1900's it just stopped and I have never found a conclusive reason as to why.
I hear so many calling for "pure Islam" and this is really nothing but fundamentalist doing there best to bring everything back to the stone age.

So please know that I am not criticizing you but instead I am criticizing those that just sit up and get spoon fed by every ideology that has a hilal stamped on it is perfectly normal.

What are you talking about ?
I never talked about "kaffer" in any post.
And if you talk about Bilal Philips, i don't know what he said about that subject, i don't listen to him.

I never claimed you said such things. I am was merely making a statement as to how other Muslims act.
Stop being literal