I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...

[Octavia156]

I know. It's almost as bad as, say, lying about the existence of weapons of mass destruction in a foreign country and killing hundreds of thousands of people in the name of "fighting terrorism."

It's bad, isn't it?

Its horrednous. I marched against that illegal war. I hope they are tried one day. Totally against what Britain stands for. Blair was unable to face our Queen for that - cancelled their mandatory weekly meetings so he could suck on Bush's backside

Don't think you can't count Tony Blair or George Bush as Christian leaders... Neither of them are Preists or Arch-Bishops are they?
They are politicians. Politicians lie. its in the job description.

From the stats I posted previously..... even though it was an illegal unjust war (albeit fighting a fascist dictator) we* still have a long way to go before we*'ve killed as many innocents as Islam has. WMD or no WMD.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Its horrednous. I marched against that illegal war. I hope they are tried one day.

Don't think you can't count Tony Blair or George Bush as Christian leaders... Neither of them are Preists or Arch-Bishops are they?

And neither are most Muslims or Muslim governments; most aren't imams/clerics. What's your point?

Christianity actually is a Religion of Peace..... Jesus was as left wing hippie as they get.

I don't see why you'd need to tell me that, seeing as how I didn't accuse any religious leaders of being insincere in their condemnation of violence due to their supposed beliefs.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From WIKIPEDIA:

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

Could we get the "from WIKIPEDIA" link?

 

[Octavia156]

Persecution of Zoroastrians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Islam and Sikhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and the CBN link: http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/onlinediscipleship/understandingislam/IslamHistory0212.aspx

I know this is a Christian site - but its duscussing historical facts, albeit in an opinionated way.

 

[Assad91]

"Those who make war with God and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom."

When certain verses were revealed, there was war between the muslims and the nonbelievers, as the pagan arabs were trying to oppress the muslims. If you knew this, then maybe you would know the context of some verses

"Disbelievers will have a painful doom."

And christians say non-christians will go to hell. Any different?

"Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth.

I believe the OT says similar Still, what do you take it to mean?

"And slay them (the non-believers) wherever ye find them" 191

Again, time of war.

"Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers" 28

The verse, says "awliya" which means supporters. Again, time of war. The muslims were commanded to stick together and not defect to the christians, jews or pagans.

"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." 56

Again, christians say the same thing

"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom."118

Again, not to take the wicked for support.

"Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom."

Shall I show you what the midevel christians used to say of hell? Fire and brimstone.

"Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value)."

Talking of dying to defend your home and people.

"Never should a believer kill a believer;"

Which is right. It is a sin to murder innocent people. You would know that if you qouted the verse which says to not Murder an innocent, not to commit adultry.....

"When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
"For the Unbelievers God hath prepared a humiliating punishment."

Again, time of war. When they were travelling, they would take turns praying. On group stood watch as the other prayed, and they would switch.
Read a fiqh on living in non muslim land. We are not allowed to shorten our prayers in peace time.

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer God an open proof against yourselves?"

Already answered

"Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by God."

WHere is this verse from? And do they use the word "awliya"?

Seriously, open a fiqh book.

"God has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians. Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ."

Where does it say this? Most of the times, Quran says the Christians have lost their way. Regardless, Jews will say the same!

 

[Assad91]

"Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then God will consider you to be one of them. Jews and Christians are losers. Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardiansJews and Christians are evil-livers. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests."
[/I]

Already answered. What is this? Post the same verse with different interpretation?

The Qu'ran often mentions the fate of "Hypocrites"
Can you clarify - is a Moderate Muslim - i.e. one that drinks alcohol, one that befriends non-muslims, or one that interacts in anyway with a non-believer a "Hypocrite"?

Of course not.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) describes the attributes of a hypocrite in faith in a very concise way. The Prophet once said that the signs of a hypocrite are three: Whenever he speaks, he lies; whenever he promises, he breaks it; and if he is entrusted with something, he betrays the trust (Al-Bukhari)

This does not mean that if a Muslim tells lies, breaks promises, or betrays trusts he becomes a hypocrite. It means that these qualities, if found to be a part of their nature in their regular dealings with people, are strong indicators that this person's faith is weak.

Only Allah knows for sure who among us is a sincere believer and who is a true hypocrite. Sometimes hypocrites don't even realize that they are hypocrites. They are so convincing to other people that they even convince themselves they are believers, whereas their behavior shows quite the opposite..............................

The Making of a Hypocrite - Heart & Soul - counsels - OnIslam.net

Your question is very loaded as it assumes your simple reading is correct and we can't deal with non-muslims and befriend them. Sadly, this is what happens when non-arabic reading, unknowing people read Quran and think they can derive rulings from it! Ask a scholar!

Question:

as salamu 3alaykum yaa shuyoukh, bismillahir rahmanir rahim,

I live in Belgium and there is a group here called Sharia4Belgium who use Quran 5:51 as an argument and evidence to prohibit Muslims to be friends with non-believers. They claim that wala wal bara means to hate all non-Muslims and to love only the Muslims. Is this a correct belief? If not, what’s the correct belief and what are the evidences for it?

Please help me as I am confused, because these groups come with so many evidences, as they call it and I have a very limited knowledge.

Thank you very much

Answer:

`Alaykum Salam,
No, it means do not take non-Muslim as allies at the exclusion of Muslims. If it means what they claim then what are they doing in Belgium? The bread they eat is harvested, milled, and produced by non-Muslims and the water they drink reaches them through the good work of non-Muslims, so they are more than friends with them and are eating in the palm of their hands even if they do not like it. Furthermore the Salaf al-Salih not only had non-Muslim friends but plenty of non-Muslim parents, wives, in-laws, neighbors, etc. whom they respected and befriended or even loved. Their behavior and advice is not from Islam or the Sunna of the Prophet Muhammad (upon him blessings and peace) but rather from the Khawarij.

Tafseer Surah 5:51 | eShaykh.com

The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: [O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.] (Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)

In another place in the Qur'an, Allah Almighty says:

[Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)

Moreover, Allah Almighty has described Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as "a mercy" to the worlds. He was a sign of Allah's Mercy to all, Muslims as well as non-Muslims. In his kindness and fair treatment he did not make any difference between the believers and non-believers. He was kind to the pagans of Makkah and fought them only when they fought him. He made treaties with the Jews of Madinah and honored the treaties until they broke them.

He (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have received the Christians of Najran with kindness in his Masjid in Madinah. They argued with him about Islam, but he returned them with honor and respect. There are many examples from his life that show that he was the friendliest person to all people.

In the verse you quoted, the word "Awliya" is used. It is a plural and its singular is "wali". The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".

In the Qur'an this word is used for God, such as [Allah is the Protector (or Lord and Master) of those who believe. He takes them out from the depths of darkness to light…] (Al- Baqarah 2: 257)

There are many other references in the Qur'an that give this meaning. The same word is also sometimes used in the Qur'an for human beings, such as [And whosoever is killed unjustly, We have granted his next kin "wali" the authority (to seek judgement or punishment in this case)…] (Al-‘Isra' 17 :33)

The correct translation of the verse in Surat Al-Ma’idah is: [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)

It is obvious that Jews patronize the Jews and Christians patronize the Christians, so why not Muslims patronize Muslims and support their own people. This verse is not telling us to be against Jews or Christians, but it is telling us that we should take care of our own people and we must support each other.

In his Tafsir, (Qur’an exegesis) Imam Ibn Kathir has mentioned that some scholars say that this verse (i.e. the one you referred to) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68)

Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. You are correct in pointing out that a Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says: [O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya') your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.] (Al-Tawbah 9: 23)

In a similar way, the Qur'an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims' duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from oppression. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said that he himself will defend a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non-Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah Almighty says, [Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers…] (Aal-'Imran 3: 28)

He Almighty also says: [O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?] (An-Nisaa’ 4:144)

Does Islam Forbid Befriending Non-Muslims? - Relations during Peace - counsels - OnIslam.net

If this is the case - aren't all so called Moderate Muslims actually Hypocrites and so called "extreme" Muslims simply acting out the commands of the Qu'ran?

See above. It isn't the case

 

[Octavia156]

And neither are most Muslims or Muslim governments; most aren't imams/clerics. What's your point?

I inferred you were comparing those who led the wars were representing Christianity, which they weren't.
Perhaps I misunderstood your first post.

 

[Assad91]

There Octavia. You asked, and recieved with accompanying links. Feel free to read from those links. eShaykh.com OnIslam.net Both really good websites.

 

[Octavia156]

When certain verses were revealed, there was war between the muslims and the nonbelievers, as the pagan arabs were trying to oppress the muslims. If you knew this, then maybe you would know the context of some verses



And christians say non-christians will go to hell. Any different?


I believe the OT says similar Still, what do you take it to mean?



Again, time of war.


The verse, says "awliya" which means supporters. Again, time of war. The muslims were commanded to stick together and not defect to the christians, jews or pagans.


Again, christians say the same thing

Again, not to take the wicked for support.


Shall I show you what the midevel christians used to say of hell? Fire and brimstone.


Talking of dying to defend your home and people.


Which is right. It is a sin to murder innocent people. You would know that if you qouted the verse which says to not Murder an innocent, not to commit adultry.....


Again, time of war. When they were travelling, they would take turns praying. On group stood watch as the other prayed, and they would switch.
Read a fiqh on living in non muslim land. We are not allowed to shorten our prayers in peace time.

Already answered

WHere is this verse from? And do they use the word "awliya"?

Seriously, open a fiqh book.

Where does it say this? Most of the times, Quran says the Christians have lost their way. Regardless, Jews will say the same!

I'm neither a Christian or Jew. There's no point in citing any Abrahsmic ideology in defense - they're all as bad as each other in many respects. Medieval, outdated, irrelevant and dogmatic.

If a Christian or a Jew beheaded someone in the street in the same of Jesus or Jehova I'd be asking them the same questions.

 

[Assad91]

I'm neither a Christian or Jew. There's no point in citing any Abrahsmic ideology in defense - they're all as bad as each other in many respects. Medieval, outdated, irrelevant and dogmatic.

If a Christian or a Jew beheaded someone in the street in the same of Jesus or Jehova I'd be asking them the same questions.

That is all you got from my answer? You are not that thick to understand that pointing out these verses is nonsense as it is shared amongst the Abrahamic faiths. And I I answered the other verses you posted as well. What response do you have to those? Clearly, with the legitimate links I showed, you will now know your interpretation is flawed horribly.

 

[Pastek]

Octavia156, quoting a verse here and there without knowing the context or at least reading the complete surat will lead you to miscomprehention.

You can understand it alone if you just take the time to read some verses above or below when you find them quoted in some websites.

Islam exist since 1400 years and people are not crazy to keep a religion who would ask people to persecute others.
We are many to have in our family people from other faiths.

Do you see a muslim country attacking a non muslim country for the religion, the oil or something else ?

It's just some people here and there who are not supported by the majority.

 

[Assad91]

Octavia156, quoting a verse here and there without knowing the context or at least reading the complete surat will lead you to miscomprehention.

You can understand it alone if you just take the time to read some verses above or below when you find them quoted in some websites.

Very good advice. I would add to also, if you have a question, ask in the DIR instead of attempting to interpretate it for yourself, or in the lest ask a scholar. Not all the times context works, and not knowing Arabic hinders greatly.

 

[Assad91]

BTW, Octavia, you never answered my question. What culture am I? I am a born and raised American who is Muslim. And why do you speak of British Muslims as if they have a different culture. Surely not all of them are unassimilated immigrants. Born and raised in british society, there culture would be overwhelmingly british within the guidlines of british society. American Muslims are simply Americans, many who love American food, celebrate American national holidays and for most part, dress "American". How are they any different than American Jews, American Christians or American Hindus? How are British Muslims different than British Jews, Christians, Hindus? Especially 2, 3 generations who by than have thrown off the cultural baggage from the ancestral land? I can say, I observe no cultural aspect of Germany or Poland or Ukraine, all where my greatgrandparents come from.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I inferred you were comparing those who led the wars were representing Christianity, which they weren't.
Perhaps I misunderstood your first post.

No, I was pointing out that arguments painting Muslims with a broad brush and saying that their leaders in particular "could be lying" when they condemn violence just because they identify with Islam are easily shown to be inaccurate when one realizes that being a liar, insincere, and/or dishonest usually has far more to do with people than what they claim to believe (which I think has been misrepresented in this thread, too).

Also, you didn't answer my question: which translation were you talking about in the post quoted below?

no... the 'Hypocrisy' I'm enquring about has nothing to do with plagarism.

The Hypocracy I'm asking about is the term "Hypocrites" that I read in a tranlsation of the Qu'ran. I'm interseted in what Muslim people who know what they are talking about to answer this.

I have gone back and quoted all my sources for you....

Now, let the rag go.

 

[Octavia156]

There Octavia. You asked, and recieved with accompanying links. Feel free to read from those links. eShaykh.com OnIslam.net Both really good websites.

Thank you

 

[Octavia156]

No, I was pointing out that arguments painting Muslims with a broad brush and saying that their leaders in particular "could be lying" when they condemn violence just because they identify with Islam are easily shown to be inaccurate when one realizes that being a liar, insincere, and/or dishonest usually has far more to do with people than what they claim to believe (which I think has been misrepresented in this thread, too).

Also, you didn't answer my question: which translation were you talking about in the post quoted below?

A mix of Ali and Pickthall I believe.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The issue unlike commonly thought is not that there are a small percentage of Muslims who are extremist but that there is a greater majority who support it. The reason why extremism is not being attacked is primarily because no Muslim wishes to do anything about it as they side with the extremist by heart.
Muslims are taught to never speak ill of other Muslims although many do when it comes to claiming certain ones as heretics. You see this in Indonesia and Malaysia all the time in regards to Ahmadis and al-Arqam supporters.
For example when Scott Lively subtly introduced Ugandans to the opposition of homosexuality through fear mongering it made them desire a bill to treat homosexuals as felony criminals. This was kept extremely quiet amongst the Christian community because quite a few of them agreed with him and Pat Robinson was assuredly one of them. Muslims and Christians both have agendas but the issue is that one thrives in a secular world while the other does not.This obviously creates violence and chaos.
This cannot be helped and it is the product of society and the religion built from it.

 

[Octavia156]

....

Which is right. It is a sin to murder innocent people. You would know that if you qouted the verse which says to not Murder an innocent, not to commit adultry.....

Thank you for exlaining the context.
I now understand how these phrases are related to the story being told in each individual chapter.

But can you confirm - what is an "innocent" by your definition?

 

[Octavia156]

The issue unlike commonly thought is not that there are a small percentage of Muslims who are extremist but that there is a greater majority who support it. The reason why extremism is not being attacked is primarily because no Muslim wishes to do anything about it as they side with the extremist by heart.
Muslims are taught to never speak ill of other Muslims although many do when it comes to claiming certain ones as heretics. You see this in Indonesia and Malaysia all the time in regards to Ahmadis and al-Arqam supporters.
For example when Scott Lively subtly introduced Ugandans to the opposition of homosexuality through fear mongering it made them desire a bill to treat homosexuals as felony criminals. This was kept extremely quiet amongst the Christian community because quite a few of them agreed with him and Pat Robinson was assuredly one of them. Muslims and Christians both have agendas but the issue is that one thrives in a secular world while the other does not.This obviously creates violence and chaos.
This cannot be helped and it is the product of society and the religion built from it.

Mr Hitchens makes a very good point:
[youtube]Dl8BYizcTf4[/youtube]
Christopher Hitchens on Islamic Threat - YouTube

 

[Assad91]

Thank you for exlaining the context.
I now understand how these phrases are related to the story being told in each individual chapter.

But can you confirm - what is an "innocent" by your definition?

One who does not deserve capital punishment