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I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
After seeing Jayhawker's posts I guess my post still stands.

What a dishonest person.

A point I think worth emphasising is one Octavia also brought up is confusion regarding how to interpret the context of the Quran (and many other religious texts). I've seen fellow muslims argue on these boards over the context of certain verses and they have a much better understanding than a layman such as myself.

If I googled interpreting the Quran i'd get 1000 different interpretations (some anti-islamic of course).

How can you be sure how your prophet intended these texts to be interpreted? Cultural values and ideology changes over the best part of 1000 years.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
A point I think worth emphasising is one Octavia also brought up is confusion regarding how to interpret the context of the Quran (and many other religious texts). I've seen fellow muslims argue on these boards over the context of certain verses and they have a much better understanding than a layman such as myself.

If I googled interpreting the Quran i'd get 1000 different interpretations (some anti-islamic of course).

How can you be sure how your prophet intended these texts to be interpreted? Cultural values and ideology changes over the best part of 1000 years.

Parts of what you've said are true. However, if you wish to understand something it's always best to ask the experts. The commentary written by Ibn Kathir, which I linked to earlier was written 700 years ago. Today we still use that commentary because Islam doesn't change. It is the same as it was revealed. The only problem is that ignorance has grown in this day and age where literacy is almost in every home on this planet.

If you or anyone else have any questions and seek proper understanding then please utilize the Islamic DIR.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
Parts of what you've said are true. However, if you wish to understand something it's always best to ask the experts. The commentary written by Ibn Kathir, which I linked to earlier was written 700 years ago. Today we still use that commentary because Islam doesn't change. It is the same as it was revealed. The only problem is that ignorance has grown in this day and age where literacy is almost in every home on this planet.

If you or anyone else have any questions and seek proper understanding then please utilize the Islamic DIR.

Thanks :)

700 years is a long time. Not knowing anything about the arabic language has it changed over time?

I ask this as with other texts which change languages there are translational issues. These could be avoided by keeping the text in the same language and the language not changing in simple terms right?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Thanks :)

700 years is a long time. Not knowing anything about the arabic language has it changed over time?

I ask this as with other texts which change languages there are translational issues. These could be avoided by keeping the text in the same language and the language not changing in simple terms right?

The dialect that the Prophet and those of his time spoke isn't completely being spoken in any country. It is a dialect that scholars of the Arabic language and those of the Qur'an (as well as others) study to better understand the Qur'an.

The dialect has not been lost, it is only not being fully spoken by any country therefore it has to be studied for a better understanding of the Qur'an. There are millions of scholars who know that dialect, Arabs and non-Arabs alike.

That's why Islam has not and will not change, it has it's own specific language through which it was revealed and through which it can be understood fully.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
1) Educate every Muslim child that if they commit a crime against a non-believer they will enter jahiliyah.
So go against our belief? Because being an ******* and committing terrorist attack doesn't take one out of Islam. Only Allah can say where they are going.

2) Apologise
instead of claiming its nothing to do with their religion
Pfft, You got muslims bending over everytime a terrorist attack happens, in order to apologize. How many times does leaders, and memebers have to ******* apologize to be good enough? Or do you wish for soem muslims come and drop to your knees? Get the **** out of here.

3) Ban Muslims who commit crimes/perform hate speeches etc from entering mosque OR insist that they return to an Islamic country.
Committing crimes? Okay, next time I see the imam run a stop sign, I will tell him to go to some Islamic country.

Problem is, a lot of muslims are native to Britain and other other western countries. You can't force native citizens out ;)

4) Work with the police to inform them when they think someone might be becoming radicalised.
And that happens already. Everyone knows that if someone acts crazy and starts hate speeches, and talking like an extremists, we are to call the authorities. You would know such if you ever went to talk to muslims.

5) Respect our culture by not trying to instil Sharia Law here/obey our laws
Most of Muslims are part of your culture. How can British muslims not respect your culture? lol

And most are not trying to inforce sharia law. And none are in American doing it. Most Muslims are law obeying citizens. Get out of the house, go meet some muslims (and not al-muhajiroon; hizbuttahrir) and break out of your bigotted shell. YOu may learn or make some good friends.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
But you all follow the commands of the Qu'ran no?
Forgive me if some of these quotes are taken out of context - if so please explain the context.

And the Qa'ran says

"Those who make war with God and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom."

"Disbelievers will have a painful doom."
"Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers."سورة البقرة

"And slay them (the non-believers) wherever ye find them" 191
"A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever" 221

سورة آل عمران

"Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers" 28
"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." 56
"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom."118

"Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom."

"Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value)."

"Never should a believer kill a believer;"


"When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
"For the Unbelievers God hath prepared a humiliating punishment."

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer God an open proof against yourselves?"

"Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by God."


"God has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians. Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ."

"Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then God will consider you to be one of them. Jews and Christians are losers. Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardiansJews and Christians are evil-livers. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests."


The Qu'ran often mentions the fate of "Hypocrites"
Can you clarify - is a Moderate Muslim - i.e. one that drinks alcohol, one that befriends non-muslims, or one that interacts in anyway with a non-believer a "Hypocrite"?

If this is the case - aren't all so called Moderate Muslims actually Hypocrites and so called "extreme" Muslims simply acting out the commands of the Qu'ran?
Funny. No link, and no sources as to where these quotes come from lol.

Many of which I never heard of. Care to be fair, and post the link where you got these? Thanks
 

Octavia156

OTO/EGC
After seeing Jayhawker's posts I guess my post still stands.

What a dishonest person.


Forgive me for not quoting all my sources... I don't see how this makes me dishnoest LOL

plagarism doesn't equate to dishonesty or deciet - I'm not submitting an essay or claiming they're my words!

Plenty of people post on this forum without posting their exact source - many people simply post their ponions as facts. I will go back and list my source (Wikipedia) if it makes you happy... but I hardly think I'm being decietful.

Interesting that you sort out those quotes.... why do you feel so strongly that you would do that?
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I'm an Aussie, and I lived in NZ for about 18 months, so I'll have a crack at this...

An Aussie HATES losing to a Kiwi in pretty much anything, and a Kiwi HATES losing to an Aussie in pretty much anything. That said, if you throw a bunch of Aussies and Kiwi's into a strange country, they'll gravitate to the same bars, and argue over how each is better than the other.

There is definitely a competitive streak between them, and plenty of jokes, many of which are equal parts humour and put-down.

Why did the sheep cross the road?

To get to the other side.

Why did the Kiwi cross the road?

Because his junk was caught in the sheep. (of course, junk is the sanitized version...ahem...)

That kinda thing.

Great post! I liked that! That's what we need, that kind of .... of... yes... Friendly-friction, which reads as if it would evaporate into close-comradeship at the first sign of difficulty or trouble.

That's it. We'll have some of that, please..... and you can send another shipload of Fosters over! :)
 

Octavia156

OTO/EGC
So go against our belief? Because being an ******* and committing terrorist attack doesn't take one out of Islam. Only Allah can say where they are going.

Pfft, You got muslims bending over everytime a terrorist attack happens, in order to apologize. How many times does leaders, and memebers have to ******* apologize to be good enough? Or do you wish for soem muslims come and drop to your knees? Get the **** out of here.

Committing crimes? Okay, next time I see the imam run a stop sign, I will tell him to go to some Islamic country.

Problem is, a lot of muslims are native to Britain and other other western countries. You can't force native citizens out ;)

And that happens already. Everyone knows that if someone acts crazy and starts hate speeches, and talking like an extremists, we are to call the authorities. You would know such if you ever went to talk to muslims.


Most of Muslims are part of your culture. How can British muslims not respect your culture? lol

And most are not trying to inforce sharia law. And none are in American doing it. Most Muslims are law obeying citizens. Get out of the house, go meet some muslims (and not al-muhajiroon; hizbuttahrir) and break out of your bigotted shell. YOu may learn or make some good friends.


Showing your colours here a bit....

all those *************** am I maing you angry? if so calm down, its a debate!
 
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Octavia156

OTO/EGC
Generally it's the prison, but in some countries it can be death.
It has nothing to do with muslim or non-muslim, it's just a question of justice.
We have courts and lawyers you know



4.90 Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people.

And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

5.32 Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.

31.15 But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness and follow the way of those who turn back to Me [in repentance]. Then to Me will be your return, and I will inform you about what you used to do.

5.8 O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

17.33 And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported [by the law].

19.46 [His father] said, "Have you no desire for my gods, O Abraham? If you do not desist, I will surely stone you, so avoid me a prolonged time."

19.47
[Abraham] said, "Peace will be upon you. I will ask forgiveness for you of my Lord. Indeed, He is ever gracious to me.


Thank you - this is MUCH more useful than a response full of profanities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j04osq6QWX8
 
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Octavia156

OTO/EGC
Hypocrisy ... as in a plagiarist (and a defender of plagiarism) seeking to convince us that 1.6 billion people can't be trusted?

no... the 'Hypocrisy' I'm enquring about has nothing to do with plagarism.

The Hypocracy I'm asking about is the term "Hypocrites" that I read in a tranlsation of the Qu'ran. I'm interseted in what Muslim people who know what they are talking about to answer this.

I have gone back and quoted all my sources for you....

Now, let the rag go.
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
yeh I know... this is a topic for a whole other discussion.

Its just something I'm weary of.

When Muslims leaders stand up and say they abhor acts of terrorism - they could quite easily be lying in a way that no Christian leader could get away with.

I know. It's almost as bad as, say, lying about the existence of weapons of mass destruction in a foreign country and killing hundreds of thousands of people in the name of "fighting terrorism."

It's bad, isn't it?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
no... the 'Hypocrisy' I'm enquring about has nothing to do with plagarism.

The Hypocracy I'm asking about is the term "Hypocrites" that I read in a tranlsation of the Qu'ran. I'm interseted in what Muslim people who know what they are talking about to answer this.

I have gone back and quoted all my sources for you....

Now, let the rag go.

Which translation?
 
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