I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...

[Sunstone]

It is no different from being offended by Watergate and deciding to ask whether people are Republicans.

Good analogy.

 

[LuisDantas]

You think so?

I'd say 1 was clearly a facist adenga akin to Hilter's

And 4 - well see above post RE Hymen replacement.

Sharia law practically permits women to be murdered if they dishonor their family..... and women who are beaten by their husbands are not permitted a divorce.

Not on my turf thanks - we are a FREE society thanks!

Aye, I think so. See:

1) Being actively pro the Islamification of the the World

This is a bit vague. What is being "actively in favor" of a cause exactly, and why is Islamification any less legitimate a goal than, say, economic freedom?

2) Commits violent acts or makes anti-western speeches to incite hatred of Western ideas

Does saying that some "western" party or another is ruining America qualify? If not, why?

3) Plots to kill non-believers, kills non-believers, thinks non-believres should be wiped out

Clearly reprehemsible, of course. Also very rare among Muslims, arguably more so than among other groups.

4) Tries to instil Islamic/Sharia law wherever possible

That is just another way of saying "accepts that Islamic/Sharia Law isn't always possible to implement".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Anyone who attempts to convert or twart my beliefs, freedoms or introduce inhumane laws into my country is acting like a facist.

WOW ... just wow!

 

[Assad91]

I know!

Again - not an laughing matter.

Anyone who attempts to convert or twart my beliefs, freedoms or introduce inhumane laws into my country is acting like a facist.

Evalgelism that involves the killing of innocent people has no place in the modern rational world. I don't care what people want to believe, just don't shove it in my face... try and suggest I'm less worthy than you, kill my countrymen in the name of your God or attempt to introduce fascists ideologies.

Did you know our NHS has to offer hymen replacement treatment to young Muslims girls at risk of being beaten or murdered by their family. My taxes are paying for this... and all because supposed "Modertate Muslims" live here.
Disgusting.

Ah, now you edit. Cool

Still pretty full of bigotry. As if every muslim does these things.

The irony of speaking of your country as civilized, non-muslim brits being better then all muslim supremacist, free society, etc. Than you show you're too ignorant to realize the diversity of islam and its people. Good job.

 

[Octavia156]

Aye, I think so. See:

1. This is a bit vague. What is being "actively in favor" of a cause exactly, and why is Islamification any less legitimate a goal than, say, economic freedom?

2. Does saying that some "western" party or another is ruining America qualify? If not, why?

3. Clearly reprehemsible, of course. Also very rare among Muslims, arguably more so than among other groups.

4. That is just another way of saying "accepts that Islamic/Sharia Law isn't always possible to implement".

1 - It defintely less legitamate tha "economic freedom" if only because it is anti-freedom.

2 - no, because that isn't suggesting that you murder the people in that party.

3 - Isn't the killing of/lying to non-believers advocated in the Qu'ran though?

4 - I disagree - or I should re-phrase - anyone who thinks Sharia law should be implemented in the west.

 

[Assad91]

Saying all muslims kill daugghters who dishonor them (nonislamic practice outlawed in just about every muslim majority country), spread hatred for nonbelievers, spread a message to kill nonbelievers, etc, is like saying all Brits are raging racist, xenophobic idiots, look at EDL. Its a nasty stereotype based on a small minority.

 

[Assad91]

"spreading islamification". Right? How dare anyone come here and express their culture.

 

[Octavia156]

Ah, now you edit. Cool

Still pretty full of bigotry. As if every muslim does these things.

The irony of speaking of your country as civilized, non-muslim brits being better then all muslim supremacist, free society, etc. Than you show you're too ignorant to realize the diversity of islam and its people. Good job.

haha.... my country is much more civiilised than most - the fact that I can walk about my door dressed in whatever I like, say whatever I like, do whatever I like indicates I live in relative freedom compared to most women in the world.

I don't realise the diveristy of Islam, sorry. I'm trying, but everytime I think I can make my peace with your belief system I hear yet another horror story of what your culture does either to non-believers, or to its own women.

 

[Octavia156]

Saying all muslims kill daugghters who dishonor them (nonislamic practice outlawed in just about every muslim majority country), spread hatred for nonbelievers, spread a message to kill nonbelievers, etc, is like saying all Brits are raging racist, xenophobic idiots, look at EDL. Its a nasty stereotype based on a small minority.

didn't say the word ALL.

I simply stated what exists.

The fact that we have to replace hymens of muslim girls is a fact. If girls weren't being beaten or murdered - we wouldn't have to offer it would we? :cover:

 

[LuisDantas]

So we are taking as premises that:

- "Islamification" is inherently anti-freedom (for 1)

- Speeches that do not suggest murdering people don't qualify as hatred speeches (for 2)

- That solid majority of Muslims that do not see "wiping out" Kaffirs as something Islamic are somehow wrong or shouldn't be considered as decisive (for 3)

- To think that Sharia should be implemented is by definition wrong (regardless of how easily or reasonably one might turn out to be convinced otherwise) (for 4)

Is that correct?

 

[Octavia156]

The other problem is this:
You say most Muslims abhors the actions of extremists BUT, how do we know they are telling the truth?

"Are Muslims permitted to lie?


Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."
There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them. "

SOURCE: TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

 

[LuisDantas]

So it comes down to whether or not we should give in to hostile paranoia?

 

[Octavia156]

So we are taking as premises that:

- "Islamification" is inherently anti-freedom (for 1)

- Speeches that do not suggest murdering people don't qualify as hatred speeches (for 2)

- That solid majority of Muslims that do not see "wiping out" Kaffirs as something Islamic are somehow wrong or shouldn't be considered as decisive (for 3)

- To think that Sharia should be implemented is by definition wrong (regardless of how easily or reasonably one might turn out to be convinced otherwise) (for 4)

Is that correct?

:yes: that is what I think.

 

[LuisDantas]

:yes: that is what I think.

Well, thanks then. Being aware of your premises is certainly positive. If nothing else it pinpoints what should be addressed and clarified.

 

[Octavia156]

So it comes down to whether or not we should give in to hostile paranoia?

yeh I know... this is a topic for a whole other discussion.

Its just something I'm weary of.

When Muslims leaders stand up and say they abhor acts of terrorism - they could quite easily be lying in a way that no Christian leader could get away with.

 

[LuisDantas]

While I don't technically agree, you do have an important point. We should not allow people to lie so easily and so gravely out of religious conviction.

 

[Assad91]

The other problem is this:
You say most Muslims abhors the actions of extremists BUT, how do we know they are telling the truth?

"Are Muslims permitted to lie?


Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."
There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them. "

SOURCE: TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

I don't want to speak on how Shia take taqiyyah, but Sunni muslims are only allowed to lie when our lives are in danger, and even than, most scholars say it is more honorable to not lie and die shaheed.

This "Muslims lie! taqiyyah" is born of ignorance of different sects, different doctrines, and never care on how they are told to be used.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

When Muslims leaders stand up and say they abhor acts of terrorism - they could quite easily be lying in a way that no Christian leader could get away with.

This is getting seriously sick.

 

[Assad91]

I don't realise the diveristy of Islam, sorry. I'm trying, but everytime I think I can make my peace with your belief system I hear yet another horror story of what your culture does either to non-believers, or to its own women.

Yeah. You are ignorant of Islamic diversity. You think what 20% of Muslims represent all (Taqiyyahh). Whats next? You will say we all believe in the 12 imams? We all believe in Ahmad,?

I guess despite the numerous fatwa, organisations, etc, set up to denounce and combat extremism are not real? Huh, so I wonder where all billion muslims are not waging jihad by killing civilians, women, and committing suicide.

 

[oldbadger]

:yes: that is what I think.

I don't come across too many people like you. You have guts, lady. I have a feeling that had you seen that murder, that you would have had a 'go'.

Brit women amaze me. One woman walked right up to one of the murderers and confronted him, as he still stood there, knife in hand. She was photographed. The WPC (Woman Police Constable) first out of the car who stood to face his attack; another brave one.

One in five of our leaders is now a woman. We need 'one on one', and then we'll be really getting somewhere with all this. Imagine all those Brit female leaders. Regardless of their politics, all those Thatcher-type spirits.