I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...

[Assad91]

I hear yet another horror story of what your culture does either to non-believers, or to its own women.

BTW, what is my culture? Last I checked it was American.

 

[Aquitaine]

*edit*

Sadly it just perpetuates the cycle of violence. Soon after that solider was killed in Woolwich, the EDL began attacking Mosques and Muslims, which will then encourage retaliation - the situation just gets repeated over and over again as people keep looking for "revenge". It's like a tornado of hate, ignorance and violence.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sadly it just perpetuates the cycle of violence. Soon after that solider was killed in Woolwich, the EDL began attacking Mosques and Muslims, which will then encourage retaliation - the situation just gets repeated over and over again as people keep looking for "revenge". It's like a tornado of hate, ignorance and violence.

Is that not the truth?

 

[Aquitaine]

Is that not the truth?

I guess it's the result of people letting their emotions dictate their actions unchecked. Primarily Fear and Anger, I'd say. Sadly, it seems this is all too Human.

 

[Agnostic75]

So, what is the Muslim community doing about this?

Why do you not take responsibility for the terror and murder of non-believers, instead of just syaing oh, they're just nuts?

How do you recommend that they take responsibility?

 

[Octavia156]

How do you recommend that they take responsibility?

1) Educate every Muslim child that if they commit a crime against a non-believer they will enter jahiliyah.

2) Apologise instead of claiming its nothing to do with their religion

3) Ban Muslims who commit crimes/perform hate speeches etc from entering mosque OR insist that they return to an Islamic country.

4) Work with the police to inform them when they think someone might be becoming radicalised.

5) Respect our culture by not trying to instil Sharia Law here/obey our laws



But I am inferring from you that there are many different sects of Islam and it is wrong of me to generalise/lump them all into one.

If this is the case - from which sect are these terrorists coming from? And/or where in the Qu'ran are they finding the justification for their acts?

If you can pinpoint which verse/chapters they are using to defend their actions.... you can begin educating young Muslims about the correct way to interpret these passeges.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Suspect? So you have no idea either?

It's usually Americans who are accused of being too literal, but let me state it as clearly as possible. I knew he was being sarcastic.

It was all explained in an earlier post. In my opinion it could be difficult for those who give answer 1 to come together with all other persons in a community to discover how they might live in harmony. Does that explain it for you?

Yes. It's pretty obvious, though.

Perhaps you might have some good suggestions as to how harmony between atheists, agnostics, christians, buddhists, sikhs, muslims and all could be achieved?

It requires mutual respect, and a willingness not to characterise with stereo-types, but instead take people as they come. If someone is a ********, they're a ********, regardless of skin colour, religion, etc.

I think that there was a huge statue of Buddha somewhere in Afghanistan, and I read that some Muslims pulled it down. This happened several years ago. Did you hear about that? You see..... such disharmony can exist in all kinds of ways. We need harmony.

I agree about the harmony part. I just think harmony is unlikely to be achieved by demonizing 1.5 billion people. You could always try and substitute 'uneducated' for 'Muslims' in your above-sentence. Or 'men desensitized to violence after decades of war'. You can argue that it is religion that drives these guys to do these things, and I'll be the first to admit, I have no love of religion. But looking at it as the only factor goes completely against the harmony you profess to want.

As an example, I know this guy doesn't speak for all Christians.

Pat Robertson Says the Christian Thing to do is, “Destroy Your Friend’s Buddha Statue” | loonwatch.com

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I have heard that Ozzies and Kiwis have attitudes about each other; maybe an Oz member could verify that. I don't think there are any Kiwi members....

I'm an Aussie, and I lived in NZ for about 18 months, so I'll have a crack at this...

An Aussie HATES losing to a Kiwi in pretty much anything, and a Kiwi HATES losing to an Aussie in pretty much anything. That said, if you throw a bunch of Aussies and Kiwi's into a strange country, they'll gravitate to the same bars, and argue over how each is better than the other.

There is definitely a competitive streak between them, and plenty of jokes, many of which are equal parts humour and put-down.

Why did the sheep cross the road?

To get to the other side.

Why did the Kiwi cross the road?

Because his junk was caught in the sheep. (of course, junk is the sanitized version...ahem...)

That kinda thing.

 

[HiddenHijabi]

Facts are facts - Men who call themselves Muslims are murdering innocent people on the streets in the name of Islam....

What other religion is doing this today?

There's been plenty of religious strife in the world which is nothing to do with Islam. Try the suppression of Rohingya Muslims in Burma which saw Buddhists kill a Muslim man in the streets simply for being Muslim, by setting him on fire and then leaving him to die in agony, even preventing people from saving him.

You mignt also want to research Israel, although to my knowledge there have been no murders. There have been a known number of attacks by Haredi Orthodox Jews upon both non-Jews, including an elderly Christian man who suffered a fractured skull, and even more liberal Jews. Liberal jewish women trying to pray at the Wailing Wall were set upon by the ultra-orthodox men, and some women, for 'violating' halakhah.

Similalry there's been attacks by Hindus on Muslims, their homes and mosques in India. This includes children and women and has led to hundreds of deaths over the last two decades.

Religiously motivated killings aren't the sole preserve of Islam.

 

[Octavia156]

Yeah. You are ignorant of Islamic diversity. You think what 20% of Muslims represent all (Taqiyyahh). Whats next? You will say we all believe in the 12 imams? We all believe in Ahmad,?

I guess despite the numerous fatwa, organisations, etc, set up to denounce and combat extremism are not real? Huh, so I wonder where all billion muslims are not waging jihad by killing civilians, women, and committing suicide.

But you all follow the commands of the Qu'ran no?
Forgive me if some of these quotes are taken out of context - if so please explain the context.

SOURCE: Kafir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the Qa'ran says

"Those who make war with God and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom."

"Disbelievers will have a painful doom."
"Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers."سورة البقرة

"And slay them (the non-believers) wherever ye find them" 191
"A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever" 221

سورة آل عمران

"Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers" 28
"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." 56
"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom."118

"Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom."

"Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value)."

"Never should a believer kill a believer;"


"When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
"For the Unbelievers God hath prepared a humiliating punishment."

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer God an open proof against yourselves?"

"Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by God."

"God has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians. Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ."

"Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then God will consider you to be one of them. Jews and Christians are losers. Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardiansJews and Christians are evil-livers. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests."

SOURCE: Kafir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Qu'ran often mentions the fate of "Hypocrites"
Can you clarify - is a Moderate Muslim - i.e. one that drinks alcohol, one that befriends non-muslims, or one that interacts in anyway with a non-believer a "Hypocrite"?

If this is the case - aren't all so called Moderate Muslims actually Hypocrites and so called "extreme" Muslims simply acting out the commands of the Qu'ran?

 

[Gharib]

Nice sherry picking Octavia. Which anti-Islamic site did you visit this time to get those verses?

And they are all out of context, as always. Very typical though.

 

[Pastek]

1) Educate every Muslim child that if they commit a crime against a non-believer they will enter jahiliyah.

Jahiliya = time of ignorance

Maybe you were talking about "Jahanna" = Gehenna

2) Apologise instead of claiming its nothing to do with their religion

We will not apologise because it's their sins not ours.
We muslims, don't understand this way of thinking.

And what do we have to do about those (muslim extremists) who kill other muslims ?
Muslims will apologise to other muslims ? Does that even make sens ?

3) Ban Muslims who commit crimes/perform hate speeches etc from entering mosque OR insist that they return to an Islamic country.

This already exist about the "hate speeches". Maybe not in Uk, idk

4) Work with the police to inform them when they think someone might be becoming radicalised.

Already exist, maybe you are not aware of that but many muslims have connections with the police or the mayor.
Everybody knows that in the mosques generally.
Again, maybe not in UK

5) Respect our culture by not trying to instil Sharia Law here/obey our laws

You are talking about a minority.

If this is the case - from which sect are these terrorists coming from? And/or where in the Qu'ran are they finding the justification for their acts?

They ignore the context of some verses.

If you can pinpoint which verse/chapters they are using to defend their actions.... you can begin educating young Muslims about the correct way to interpret these passeges.

It's the duty of the parents and the Imams.
And some don't even listen to them.

But i think this part is more complicated, because it can involve the environement of the person and it can be : injustice, unemployment, violence, desire of recognition, lack of knowledge, influencable/weak person etc ...

 

[Octavia156]

There's been plenty of religious strife in the world which is nothing to do with Islam. Try the suppression of Rohingya Muslims in Burma which saw Buddhists kill a Muslim man in the streets simply for being Muslim, by setting him on fire and then leaving him to die in agony, even preventing people from saving him.

You mignt also want to research Israel, although to my knowledge there have been no murders. There have been a known number of attacks by Haredi Orthodox Jews upon both non-Jews, including an elderly Christian man who suffered a fractured skull, and even more liberal Jews. Liberal jewish women trying to pray at the Wailing Wall were set upon by the ultra-orthodox men, and some women, for 'violating' halakhah.

Similalry there's been attacks by Hindus on Muslims, their homes and mosques in India. This includes children and women and has led to hundreds of deaths over the last two decades.

Religiously motivated killings aren't the sole preserve of Islam.

I know there have beeb some isolated incidents where Muslims have been persecuted.... but if you look at history a lot of this persecuation is retaliation for previous acts of Islamic inevasion or persecution.

From WIKIPEDIA:

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

Within 100 years of the invention of Islam, Muslims had wiped out 80% of all Christians on the face of the planet with the sword.

Zoroastrian places of worship were desecrated, shrines were destroyed and Mosques built in their place. Many converted, some superficially, to escape the systematic abuse and discrimination by the law of the land. Once a Zoroastrian family converted to Islam, the children had to go to an Islamic school and learn Arabic and the teachings of the Quran and these children lost their Zoroastrian identity, Zoroastrians who were captured as slaves in wars were given their freedom if they converted to Islam.

From CBN:

In the 20th Century alone:

1. Muslim Turkey has expelled approximately 1,500,000 Greeks from its empire in the east and replaced them with Turks. They have massacred approximately 2 million Armenians and replaced them with Turks in the west.
2. Muslim Turkey has invaded and occupied northern Cyprus, displacing the Greeks living there.
3. Muslim northern Sudan has conquered much of southern Sudan, literally enslaving its Christian and pagan population.
4. Indonesian imperialism has occupied all of non-Islamic western New Guinea and incorporated into Indonesia.
5. Muslim Indonesia has invaded and conquered Christian East Timor with horrible loss of life.
6. This very day, Muslim Indonesia is attempting to destroy Christianity in what used to be called the Celebes.
7. A half-dozen Arab countries have fought two to four wars (depending how you count) in an attempt to destroy Israel and occupy its territory, and is currently continuing the attempt this very day with the publicly voted consent of 55 of the world's 57 Islamic nations.
8. For no good reason, Muslim Libya has blown up western aircraft, killing many civilians.
9. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist war of aggression, invaded and occupied Muslim Kuwait.
10. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist act of aggression, invaded Muslim Iran with a resulting (some estimates say) death of 2 million people.
11. Muslim Albania, this very minute, is attempting to enlarge its borders at Christian Macedonia's expense.
12. Muslim Northern Nigeria has been (and is currently) an aggressor against the Christian south.
13. Muslims expelled approximately 800,000 Jews from their homelands between 1947 and 1955.
14. During Jordan's occupation of the West Bank, the kingdom undertook an unsuccessful attempt to make Jerusalem a Muslim city by forcing out approximately 10,000 Christian inhabitants.



Yes, I know that the reverse has been true. For example, Christian Serbia entered and massacred Bosnian Muslims. And the West sent troops to save the Muslims there! But when has the Muslim world sent troops to defend non-believers against Muslims who are persecuting them? NEVER.


No matter what sect of Islam you follow - it seems it is OK to kill non-believers - because it is inline with the Islamic idea of conquest and imperialism.

 

[Octavia156]

Nice sherry picking Octavia. Which anti-Islamic site did you visit this time to get those verses?

And they are all out of context, as always. Very typical though.

As I said - forgive me if I've cherry picked - I asked you to please explain the context.


My source is Wikipedia - is that an anti- Islamic site?

Last time I quoted an Islamic site and I got a similar response - please tell me what sites I should go to that state the Truth about how Muslims should treat non-belivers accodring the the Quran.

And you didn't answer my question about Hypocrites.

 

[Gharib]

As I said - forgive me if I've cherry picked - please explain the contect.


My source is Wikipedia - is that an anti- Islamic site?

Last time I quoted an Islamic site and I got a similar response - please tell me what site I should go to.

And you didn't answer my question about Hypocrites.

All those verses have been explained many times on the forum, in the Islamic DIR to be more specific.

However, visit the link below and look up the relevant verses and their respective chapters in the commentary of Ibn Kathir, a well educated, knowledgeable and respected scholar of many sciences within Islam.

Quran, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, English, Arabic, HTML, PDF, Free Download

 

[Octavia156]

Jahiliya = time of ignorance

Maybe you were talking about "Jahanna" = Gehenna
.....

It's the duty of the parents and the Imams.
And some don't even listen to them.

But i think this part is more complicated, because it can involve the environement of the person and it can be : injustice, unemployment, violence, desire of recognition, lack of knowledge, influencable/weak person etc ...

This is an informative response - thank you.

I used Jahiliya to mean ex-communication.

And thats my point exactly - its up to the imams and parents to educate - I wonder if they are? We don't know what gets said/taught.

And yes - you have a good point about children ignoring this - it is in their nature to rebel. And the Woolich murderes were in gangs before they were radicalised which would have desinsitised them to violence.

BUT I wonder what is the punishment? If a muslim person kills a non-believer - what is their punishment - either by the community or by Allah?

Where does it say in the Qu'ran - if a believer kills a non-believer he will go to Hell/suffer/be cast out etc?
If you can find me quotes that explcitly state this I will shut up and concede much of what I've said.

 

[Pastek]

BUT I wonder what is the punishment? If a muslim person kills a non-believer - what is their punishment - either by the community or by Allah?

Generally it's the prison, but in some countries it can be death.
It has nothing to do with muslim or non-muslim, it's just a question of justice.
We have courts and lawyers you know

Where does it say in the Qu'ran - if a believer kills a non-believer he will go to Hell/suffer/be cast out etc?
If you can find me quotes that explcitly state this I will shut up and concede much of what I've said.

4.90 Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people.

And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

5.32 Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.

31.15 But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness and follow the way of those who turn back to Me [in repentance]. Then to Me will be your return, and I will inform you about what you used to do.

5.8 O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

17.33 And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported [by the law].

19.46 [His father] said, "Have you no desire for my gods, O Abraham? If you do not desist, I will surely stone you, so avoid me a prolonged time."

19.47 [Abraham] said, "Peace will be upon you. I will ask forgiveness for you of my Lord. Indeed, He is ever gracious to me.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

Found here ...

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

- Christian Broadcasting Network

... and elsewhere. Few should be surprised by the plagiarism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Within 100 years of the invention of Islam, Muslims had wiped out 80% of all Christians on the face of the planet with the sword.

And here ...

Within 100 years of the invention of Islam, Muslims had wiped out 80% of all Christians on the face of the planet with the sword. The modern "Orthodox" church (eastern, Byzantine) was almost entirely destroyed. Before this Islamic-initiated holocaust, the Byzantine church was 5 times larger than the "western/roman Catholic" church. Today the Roman Catholic church is 10 times larger than the Orthodox, as a testimony to this slaughter they endured at the hands of the Muslims. Had this slaughter not occurred, the Orthodox church would be 10 times larger than the Roman Catholic today.

- bible.ca

... did I mention plagiarism?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Zoroastrian places of worship were desecrated, shrines were destroyed and Mosques built in their place. Many converted, some superficially, to escape the systematic abuse and discrimination by the law of the land. Once a Zoroastrian family converted to Islam, the children had to go to an Islamic school and learn Arabic and the teachings of the Quran and these children lost their Zoroastrian identity, Zoroastrians who were captured as slaves in wars were given their freedom if they converted to Islam.

And here ...

Zoroastrian places of worship were desecrated, shrines were destroyed and Mosques built in their place. Many libraries were burned and much cultural heritage was lost. Gradually there were increased number of laws regulating Zoroastrian behavior, limiting their ability to participate in society. Over time, persecution of Zoroastrians became more common and widespread, and the number of believers decreased significantly.

- Wikipedia

... and the plagiarism, which is fundamentally a form of deceit, comes from one who preaches to us that Muslims cannot be trusted.