I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...

[Assad91]

This was your response to my post, about just how difficult the situation is at this time for Senior Muslim Clerics in Britain.

Diplomacy .0/10
Conflict reduction .0/10

Discussing anything with you is going to be a waste of effort. I won't be answering any more of your posts, matey.

Ha. Same can be said of you. In fact, you displayed bigotry.

Don't respond

 

[Octavia156]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

I've learned a lot (mainly don't quote the Qu'ran out of context!) as well as many insights into the different sects/views of Islam.

The most interesting ideas I've learned from Tariq Ramadan which i'm discussing in the Islam DIR. I hope to hear more from more Muslims on this topic in relation to Enlightenment as an Islamic practise.


It has been disappointing to be called a bigot and a xenophobe. However this is the usual response one gets if one dares to question Islam... this is probably why many people don't speak up - for fear they will be labelled as such, but I know that I am neither so these insults don't worry me.

The UK has been through a lot this last fortnight so I hope you can understand the my purpose for starting this thread and the emotional place it came from.

I'd particularly like to thank oldbadger and Pastek for their insightful comments.

I shall crawl back under my rock now and won't be bothering the RF Muslim community on this matter anymore.

Thanks again

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Hi.......

They will crack down on anyone who incites any kinds of public disorder, terrorism, murder, assault........ basically any crimes at all.

They've already got this (Criminal Attempts Act 1981) which makes it an offence to incite any crime, but obviously the legal wallers want to tie it up tighter than that. They probably think that old Act is a bit wishy washy for this.

Anybody at all who incites any kind of crimes, anywhere, even in their frigging lounge, needs to get sorted, so long as the evidence is clear. That includes anybody.

What do you think?

Hate and religious discrimination crimes are treated differently and are covered by different acts, and have different fairly light penalties. They probably do need revisiting, especially now that they have led to random murder attacks on soldiers. It would be hard to prove that a particular cleric's preaching, led to the action by a particular terrorist who killed randomly. There would be too many imponderables.
It is probably why they still get away with what they preach.

 

[Nehustan]

My tuppence; not all Muslims are Islamists, and not all Islamists are terrorists.

The governments in both Turkey and Egypt are broadly Islamist. Egypt is of interest because the governing party (Ikhwan Muslimeen/Muslim Brotherhood) had a historical internal dispute about methodology for gaining power; one party advocated peaceful means, i.e. democratic processes, the other insurgency/minor jihad. The famed jihadi thinker was a fellow called Qutb. As it happens the argument is now resolved in its original context as the MB have gained power democratically.

That said with the influence of salafi/wahaabi/Takfiri elements the Jihad movement has moved on...and pretty much dislike the MB precisely because they remained broadly democratic, with mass demonstrations usually being their modus operandi in countries that are often dictatorships.

 

[Godobeyer]

But you all follow the commands of the Qu'ran no?
Forgive me if some of these quotes are taken out of context - if so please explain the context.

SOURCE: Kafir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the Qa'ran says

"Those who make war with God and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom."

"Disbelievers will have a painful doom."
"Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers."سورة البقرة

"And slay them (the non-believers) wherever ye find them" 191
"A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever" 221

سورة آل عمران

"Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers" 28
"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." 56
"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom."118

"Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom."

"Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value)."

"Never should a believer kill a believer;"


"When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
"For the Unbelievers God hath prepared a humiliating punishment."

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer God an open proof against yourselves?"

"Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by God."

"God has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians. Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ."

"Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then God will consider you to be one of them. Jews and Christians are losers. Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardiansJews and Christians are evil-livers. Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests."

SOURCE: Kafir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Qu'ran often mentions the fate of "Hypocrites"
Can you clarify - is a Moderate Muslim - i.e. one that drinks alcohol, one that befriends non-muslims, or one that interacts in anyway with a non-believer a "Hypocrite"?

If this is the case - aren't all so called Moderate Muslims actually Hypocrites and so called "extreme" Muslims simply acting out the commands of the Qu'ran?

just picking a verse is not required to understand Quran ,
sometimes you need to use the Tafsir (explaination) of credible/commun scholars .

so why,when ,what for God said such thing ? the answser found in Tafsir .

 

[aymen amir]

I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...All Islamists are Muslims.

So, what is the Muslim community doing about this?

Why do you not take responsibility for the terror and murder of non-believers, instead of just syaing oh, they're just nuts!


that's simply because us Muslims have a verse in the quran that tells us that we will stand in front of Allah (GOD) all alone and we will be held accountable for our actions individually

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I know not all Muslims are Islamists, but...All Islamists are Muslims.

So, what is the Muslim community doing about this?

Why do you not take responsibility for the terror and murder of non-believers, instead of just syaing oh, they're just nuts!


that's simply because us Muslims have a verse in the quran that tells us that we will stand in front of Allah (GOD) all alone and we will be held accountable for our actions individually

That is just a cop out.
Do muslims not apply laws ?

 

[LuisDantas]

that's simply because us Muslims have a verse in the quran that tells us that we will stand in front of Allah (GOD) all alone and we will be held accountable for our actions individually

So it is (often? generally? always?) understood that each person should individually decide which behavior is most likely to please God and that it is in some sense invasive or unproper to criticize their decisions?

Is that your understanding? Do you think it is a common one? If so, how common?

 

[Pastek]

So it is (often? generally? always?) understood that each person should individually decide which behavior is most likely to please God and that it is in some sense invasive or unproper to criticize their decisions?

Is that your understanding? Do you think it is a common one? If so, how common?

I think that's not what she said, as she was responding at :

So, what is the Muslim community doing about this?

Why do you not take responsibility for the terror and murder of non-believers, instead of just syaing oh, they're just nuts!

It's not my responsability, not her responsability, not the responsability of a muslim living in China, Canada, Irak or anywhere else.

If someone did something wrong, the whole community is not guilty.

When Georges Bush bombarded Irak, talking about crusades and things like that, muslims people didn't ask the christian community to apologize.
Muslims didn't ask the sweedish christians (or christians in general) to apologize for Breivik.

We can make the difference between a governement, a man, and a community/religion.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I think that's not what she said, as she was responding at :



It's not my responsability, not her responsability, not the responsability of a muslim living in China, Canada, Irak or anywhere else.

If someone did something wrong, the whole community is not guilty.

When Georges Bush bombarded Irak, talking about crusades and things like that, muslims people didn't ask the christian community to apologize.
Muslims didn't ask the sweedish christians (or christians in general) to apologize for Breivik.

We can make the difference between a governement, a man, and a community/religion.

Every one has collective responsibility for their peers. We are all responsible for the actions of our Governments, communities and co-religionists. To stand back and say "it was nothing to do with me Gov" is a sin of omission.
We should take an interest in such things and make our feelings known or we are guilty of complicity.

Brevick did not kill Muslims he killed socialist Norwegian Christians, who he thought were responsible for the diluting of his White race. He was a fascist raciest.
Every one condemned him.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

British people stop embarrassing me haha!

 

[Pastek]

Every one has collective responsibility for their peers. We are all responsible for the actions of our Governments, communities and co-religionists. To stand back and say "it was nothing to do with me Gov" is a sin of omission.
We should take an interest in such things and make our feelings known or we are guilty of complicity.

I understand.
But there's still a difference here.
The governement is supposted to be elected by people, so the governement respresents his citizens and is the image of the country.

But why we must take responsability for individual groups here and there ?
They don't represent us, we didn't voted for them.
We didn't asked them anything, they didn't asked for our opinion.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

So embarrassing when non Muslim British people pretend to care about Muslim women.

 

[HiddenHijabi]

So embarrassing when non Muslim British people pretend to care about Muslim women.

What annoys me is when I'm told 'you're oppressed' by many people when I do not see it that way. In choosing deliberately to wear hijab, I'm freeing myself from the pressures modern society places on being super-skinny/artificially beautiful/otherwise subject to the wishes of others.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

What annoys me is when I'm told 'you're oppressed' by many people when I do not see it that way. In choosing deliberately to wear hijab, I'm freeing myself from the pressures modern society places on being super-skinny/artificially beautiful/otherwise subject to the wishes of others.

And apparently you are responsible for terrorists and should consider changing your religion because of them!?

At least hijab doesn't hurt you and restrict your freedom of movement like high heels do!

 

[Aquitaine]

What annoys me is when I'm told 'you're oppressed' by many people when I do not see it that way. In choosing deliberately to wear hijab, I'm freeing myself from the pressures modern society places on being super-skinny/artificially beautiful/otherwise subject to the wishes of others.

Not that I've got a problem with the Hijab, but to say it frees Women from having to "look to impress" for others is something which I disagree with.

I have seen plenty of Hijab-wearing women wearing a face-full of makeup at the same time. Initially it used to baffle me LOL!

 

[darkendless]

What annoys me is when I'm told 'you're oppressed' by many people when I do not see it that way. In choosing deliberately to wear hijab, I'm freeing myself from the pressures modern society places on being super-skinny/artificially beautiful/otherwise subject to the wishes of others.

In a way this is as patronising as calling muslim women who wear the hijab as oppressed.

 

[Gharib]

It has been disappointing to be called a bigot and a xenophobe. However this is the usual response one gets if one dares to question Islam... this is probably why many people don't speak up - for fear they will be labelled as such, but I know that I am neither so these insults don't worry me.

That's only true if you are one such person. I have had many discussions with many members of many backgrounds and I have not once called them any name or offended them in return for their questioning of Islam and it's teachings.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

In a way this is as patronising as calling muslim women who wear the hijab as oppressed.

How so? She is right about the pressures western women face and she is British so she knows...

 

[Aquitaine]

How so? She is right about the pressures western women face and she is British so she knows...

Whilst the pressure of "western" women to dress a certain way are indeed very (painfully) true, women all over the world are under similar pressures to appease someone else - albeit usually Men.

There's just as many women under pressure to wear the Hijab as there are to take it off, unfortunately. So I think the pressures are a global thing, not just a "western" thing.