I never knew that I was a victim of racism.

[Kfox]

From stuff like this.

Okay I see your point. First of all, I do believe many in academia are racist. It is my understanding the return of the term “people of color” was brought back in academia, as well as the idea of redefining racism in a way that requires power in an attempt to exempt blacks from the definition.

As far as “racism has nothing to do with race,” nothing you quoted me on suggests that. As far as “Scholarship being obsession”, I never suggested that either. As I eluded to before, I don’t know any sociologists, most of the people I know of who obsess over racial issues are just regular bigots.

 

[Kfox]

I disagree. Race relations in America have a deep-seated history and being blind to that only helps us ignore the problems generated by that history.

Colorblindness does not mean to ignore history, as I said it means to not consider race when it comes to how we treat people.

That's not to say we should consider "race" in how we treat people, and especially where that leads to negative consequences,

So you agree with me now?

but we will always see differences, and it's important to understand that it's how we treat these differences that matter.

Of course we will always see differences. We will always see the difference between tall, short, black, white, skinny, fat; etc. As I said before, colorblindness is about how you treat people, not about the person’s actual appearance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

most of the people I know of who obsess over racial issues are just regular bigots.

Many, yes. But that's not rule of thumb or anywhere close to an accurate predictor if someone is a racist or not.

It is my understanding the return of the term “people of color” was brought back in academia, as well as the idea of redefining racism in a way that requires power in an attempt to exempt blacks from the definition.

One thing that makes me glad I went late as it gave me a chance to observe the academic climate today in one location. It just did not at all match what we hear coming from Berkeley. I even filed an ADA complaint against a black teacher amd no one accused me of being a racist but agreed he should have kmown better than making someone on crutches needlessly hobble all over campus to get a paper printed amd delivered when it could have been emailed.

 

[Nakosis]

Poll: Trump voters say racism against white Americans is a bigger problem than racism against Black Americans

As various reparations efforts across the country attempt to gain momentum, new polling reveals how deep political dynamics go toward explaining why reparations for Black Americans continue to be so unpopular in the U.S.

news.yahoo.com

"Donald Trump voters believe that racism against white Americans has become a bigger problem than racism against Black Americans.

The survey of 1,638 U.S. adults, which was conducted from July 13-17, shows that among 2020 Trump voters, 62% say that racism against Black Americans is a problem today — while 73% say that racism against white Americans is a problem."

But wait, there is more:


"Asked how much of a problem racism currently is, just 19% of Trump voters describe racism against Black Americans as a “big problem.” Twice as many (37%) say racism against white Americans is a big problem."

I am sorry if I made anyone else feel like a victim too.

Have I experienced racism as a "White" person? Yeah I suppose. If Racism means being treated differently because of your race.

Does that make me a victim or feel like a victim? No, not really.

Have I experience racism in the sense of being obstructed or held back from achieving my goals? No, as folks who have tried to obstruct me I've always found a way around.

So experiencing racism doesn't necessarily make you a victim nor need to make you feel like one. So in some cases, if you see racism as a problem, it might be your attitude about it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Have I experienced racism as a "White" person? Yeah I suppose. If Racism means being treated differently because of your race.

Does that make me a victim or feel like a victim? No, not really.

Have I experience racism in the sense of being obstructed or held back from achieving my goals? No, as folks who have tried to obstruct me I've always found a way around.

So experiencing racism doesn't necessarily make you a victim nor need to make you feel like one. So in some cases, if you see racism as a problem, it might be your attitude about it.

I do hope that my claim of being a victim of racism was very tongue in cheek. I was rather amazed that a significant percentage of Trump supporters do believe that racism against white people is worse than racism against black people.

 

[Kfox]

Many, yes. But that's not rule of thumb or anywhere close to an accurate predictor if someone is a racist or not.

Notice I spoke of the people I know.

One thing that makes me glad I went late as it gave me a chance to observe the academic climate today in one location. It just did not at all match what we hear coming from Berkeley. I even filed an ADA complaint against a black teacher amd no one accused me of being a racist but agreed he should have kmown better than making someone on crutches needlessly hobble all over campus to get a paper printed amd delivered when it could have been emailed.

Are you serious? You filed a complaint against a black teacher who did you wrong, and you are surprised/relieved that nobody accused you of racism? As a black man, if I filed a complaint against a white teacher due to mistreatment, an accusation of racism is the last thing I would expect. Is racism against white people so prevalent in your life that you feel relieved that you can actually point to something a black man does wrong without being called a racist? Is this real life for you? If so, you guys have it worse than I thought!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you serious? You filed a complaint against a black teacher who did you wrong, and you are surprised/relieved that nobody accused you of racism?

No, I'm pointing out what I saw didn't match or live up to many of the accusations of academia being racist against whites. I even showed an image of Muhammed and that presentation was well recieved amd was considered one of the high points of that research symposium. Clearly the incidents that have occurred at Berkeley happened, but I suspect that an exception and not the rule or we'd be seeing such things from more campuses rather than seeing the same usual for quite awhile now.

 

[Kfox]

No, I'm pointing out what I saw didn't match or live up to many of the accusations of academia being racist against whites

If the accusation of racism is your expectation for a complaint of mistreatment by a black teacher, you might have to excuse my skepticism of your ability to determine if accusations of racism against whites have merit or not.

Clearly the incidents that have occurred at Berkeley happened, but I suspect that an exception and not the rule or we'd be seeing such things from more campuses rather than seeing the same usual for quite awhile now.

Berkely isn’t the only one, there have been others I could have pointed to as well but I suspect such outrageousness is the exception; not the rule, as a matter of fact I believe racism is the exception; not the rule. I wasn’t claiming it as the rule, only that such things do exist and this is likely what people in the OP were complaining about.

 

[Orbit]

Colorblindness does not mean to ignore history, as I said it means to not consider race when it comes to how we treat people.

So you agree with me now?

Of course we will always see differences. We will always see the difference between tall, short, black, white, skinny, fat; etc. As I said before, colorblindness is about how you treat people, not about the person’s actual appearance.

Sociologist Eduardo Bonilla-Silva writes that majority groups use color-blindness to avoid discussing racism and discrimination.[26] Color-blindness can be seen as a way to undermine minority hardships, as it used to argue that the United States is a meritocracy, in which people succeed only because they work hard and not their privilege.[27] John R. Logan has disagreed with this notion of meritocracy, as the average black or Hispanic household earning more than $75,000 still live in a less affluent neighborhood than a white household earning less than $40,000 and poverty rates are higher for minorities.[28][29]

 

[Orbit]

Okay I see your point. First of all, I do believe many in academia are racist. It is my understanding the return of the term “people of color” was brought back in academia, as well as the idea of redefining racism in a way that requires power in an attempt to exempt blacks from the definition.

As far as “racism has nothing to do with race,” nothing you quoted me on suggests that. As far as “Scholarship being obsession”, I never suggested that either. As I eluded to before, I don’t know any sociologists, most of the people I know of who obsess over racial issues are just regular bigots.

What do you know about the sociological definition of racism? I'm curious, because you seem a bit mixed up.

 

[Kfox]

Sociologist Eduardo Bonilla-Silva writes that majority groups use color-blindness to avoid discussing racism and discrimination

Absurd! I guarantee he didn’t do a survey of those who use the term and why, he is just reading into something he does not like. I gave the definition of colorblindness that I use, in the context of this conversation that is the only one that matters.

.[26] Color-blindness can be seen as a way to undermine minority hardships, as it used to argue that the United States is a meritocracy, in which people succeed only because they work hard and not their privilege.[27] John R. Logan has disagreed with this notion of meritocracy, as the average black or Hispanic household earning more than $75,000 still live in a less affluent neighborhood than a white household earning less than $40,000 and poverty rates are higher for minorities.[28][29]

Don’t assume that because someone is a sociologist, that everything they say on the subject is honest and true. Anybody can be biased even those in the professional community.

What do you know about the sociological definition of racism? I'm curious, because you seem a bit mixed up.

I am good with this definition.

Definition of RACISM

a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race; also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Orbit]

Absurd! I guarantee he didn’t do a survey of those who use the term and why, he is just reading into something he does not like. I gave the definition of colorblindness that I use, in the context of this conversation that is the only one that matters.

Don’t assume that because someone is a sociologist, that everything they say on the subject is honest and true. Anybody can be biased even those in the professional community.

I am good with this definition.

Definition of RACISM

a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race; also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Your personal definition of colorblindness is the only one that matters? I can assure you it doesn't, except to you. The answer is that you don't know anything about race in any nuanced way, and your answer to being challenged is to call your challengers racists. That's a pretty ****-poor way to have a meaningful conversation about a social issue.

 

[Kfox]

Your personal definition of colorblindness is the only one that matters?

in the context of me defending the term? Yes. The problem with subjective terms like “color blindness” is it can mean different things to different people. On Post #84 I defined my idea of colorblindness, and that is the only definition I am defending. If you have a different definition of it, let’s hear it and perhaps we can have a different conversation concerning your definition of the term. But it makes no sense to argue over a term unless we agree on what the term means.

 

[Orbit]

in the context of me defending the term? Yes. The problem with subjective terms like “color blindness” is it can mean different things to different people. On Post #84 I defined my idea of colorblindness, and that is the only definition I am defending. If you have a different definition of it, let’s hear it and perhaps we can have a different conversation concerning your definition of the term. But it makes no sense to argue over a term unless we agree on what the term means.

You seem invested in your solipsism, though. It's not up to me to have my own personal definition of colorblind as it pertains to racism. It's up to both of us to grapple with the meaning and ramifications of the concept as defined by its author, Eduardo Bonilla-Silva. His point is that saying you are "color-blind" keeps you from even discussing the effects of race, and shuts down any discussion of racism. It's a form of denial.

Here's an illustration of what he means: I once attended a race workshop at an academic conference led by a black woman. She said the following about claiming that you are "color-blind": "Do you think that when I look in the mirror in the mornings I don't notice that I'm black? So don't tell me YOU don't notice. You notice."

Her point is that it is actually disingenuous to claim that you don't "see" race when clearly you do, and that it has added effect of keeping you from confronting your own interpretation of the race that you see. What does black skin mean to you? What does it suggest? A sad history? Criminal intent? Dignity in the face of adversity? Whatever it is, it is something, and it is something worth discussing.

Now extend the scope of the concept to the media to see the larger societal ramifications: what images of blackness are presented to us? What is the range of stereotypes that are presented? How do those things affect how whites "see" blackness, and how blacks "see" themselves in society's mirror? Media is a powerful agent of socialization. It matters, because it creates and reflects ideas about who is and is not worthy in society, which in turn affects how people treat each other, and how politicians frame and pursue social policy. So ultimately, there is no "color-blindness", and as Silva points out, no one is immune.

 

[Kfox]

You seem invested in your solipsism, though. It's not up to me to have my own personal definition of colorblind as it pertains to racism. It's up to both of us to grapple with the meaning and ramifications of the concept as defined by its author, Eduardo Bonilla-Silva.

Who is Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, and why does his interpretation of colorblind trump mine, yours, or anybody else’s? If your view aligns with his, say so and describe what it is. He is not a part of this conversation so I couldn’t care less what he says on the subject, I’m talking to you.

His point is that saying you are "color-blind" keeps you from even discussing the effects of race, and shuts down any discussion of racism. It's a form of denial.

He is wrong. For him to claim he knows what I or anybody else mean when we say “colorblind” and how we use the term is the ultimate of arrogance. If he wants to know what someone means, he needs to ask them; instead of assuming he knows.

Here's an illustration of what he means: I once attended a race workshop at an academic conference led by a black woman. She said the following about claiming that you are "color-blind": "Do you think that when I look in the mirror in the mornings I don't notice that I'm black? So don't tell me YOU don't notice. You notice."

Are you kidding me??? Does this woman actually believe when someone claims to be colorblind when it comes to racial issues, that they are claiming to have visual problems and are unable to distinguish the difference between black people and white people? C’mon; she can’t be that obtuse.

Her point is that it is actually disingenuous to claim that you don't "see" race when clearly you do,

To not “see” race has to do with how you treat others; it has nothing to do with your vision.

and that it has added effect of keeping you from confronting your own interpretation of the race that you see. What does black skin mean to you? What does it suggest? A sad history? Criminal intent? Dignity in the face of adversity?

That sounds like the question of a bigot. Only a bigot would look at black skin and suggest it means A, B, or C; before you even say a word or commit an act. Only a bigot would judge you based on a perceived collective, rather than your individual actions and merits

Whatever it is, it is something, and it is something worth discussing.

On post #170, I made a point about racists who become a part of academia to spread their poison. This woman sounds like something I was talking about.

Now extend the scope of the concept to the media to see the larger societal ramifications: what images of blackness are presented to us? What is the range of stereotypes that are presented? How do those things affect how whites "see" blackness, and how blacks "see" themselves in society's mirror? Media is a powerful agent of socialization.

I see a larger percentage of professional black people in the media than I see anywhere in real life. Even TV shows and movies; there are more Black Presidents, military generals, doctors, CEO’s, God’s, super hero’s and people in position of authority than I see in the real world. If you’re looking for a bad-guy to pin some racist stuff on, I don’t think Hollywood or the media is the place to look.

 

[Orbit]

Who is Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, and why does his interpretation of colorblind trump mine, yours, or anybody else’s? If your view aligns with his, say so and describe what it is. He is not a part of this conversation so I couldn’t care less what he says on the subject, I’m talking to you.

He is wrong. For him to claim he knows what I or anybody else mean when we say “colorblind” and how we use the term is the ultimate of arrogance. If he wants to know what someone means, he needs to ask them; instead of assuming he knows.

Are you kidding me??? Does this woman actually believe when someone claims to be colorblind when it comes to racial issues, that they are claiming to have visual problems and are unable to distinguish the difference between black people and white people? C’mon; she can’t be that obtuse.

To not “see” race has to do with how you treat others; it has nothing to do with your vision.

That sounds like the question of a bigot. Only a bigot would look at black skin and suggest it means A, B, or C; before you even say a word or commit an act. Only a bigot would judge you based on a perceived collective, rather than your individual actions and merits

On post #170, I made a point about racists who become a part of academia to spread their poison. This woman sounds like something I was talking about.

I see a larger percentage of professional black people in the media than I see anywhere in real life. Even TV shows and movies; there are more Black Presidents, military generals, doctors, CEO’s, God’s, super hero’s and people in position of authority than I see in the real world. If you’re looking for a bad-guy to pin some racist stuff on, I don’t think Hollywood or the media is the place to look.

Way to completely miss the point.

 

[Kfox]

Way to completely miss the point.

What's your point?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If the accusation of racism is your expectation for a complaint of mistreatment by a black teacher, you might have to excuse my skepticism of your ability to determine if accusations of racism against whites have merit or not.

I wasn't expecting it. It's the RW narrative that expects hyper sensitivity to racism that flips things around to make it a place where racism is acceptable against whites. I am saying that is not at all an issue I have amd I can even offer an example to the contrary.

Berkely isn’t the only one, there have been others I could have pointed to as well but I suspect such outrageousness is the exception; not the rule, as a matter of fact I believe racism is the exception; not the rule. I wasn’t claiming it as the rule, only that such things do exist and this is likely what people in the OP were complaining about.

Yeah, but all that's been pointed out are things not led by the school, like blocking white students from getting to class, or just aren't racist (communities of people with similar struggles and interests amd goals coming together to support each other. That last one especially, people can claim black people having their own business groups or whatnot is racist amd focus on the lack of white people having similar things, but factually white people have not bonded or grouped over being white. For much of America's history white was Anglo-Saxon and Protestant. Every body else, the Germans, the Pols, Jews, Irish, Scots, Italians, they all grouped together under that identity when thise groups were the new immigrants in America.
But black people in America started becoming Black/African Americans when they got here. Frequently without the luxury of knowing where exactly they came from unable to trace it beyond their first enslaved ancestors here, which often can't be done (especially before today's times of genetic testing), entirely detached through their ancestral culture by force, a new began here that included the commonality of their lives and experiences as black slaves from Africa to freed and citizenship-granted African Americans.
White people here have never had anything remotely comparable. And because of that we see things such as similar groups for Jewish people.

 

[Kfox]

I wasn't expecting it. It's the RW narrative that expects hyper sensitivity to racism that flips things around to make it a place where racism is acceptable against whites. I am saying that is not at all an issue I have amd I can even offer an example to the contrary.

What is RW? Examples of what?

Yeah, but all that's been pointed out are things not led by the school, like blocking white students from getting to class,

No; it wasn't lead by the school, it was allowed by the school. If it had been the other way around with white students preventing black and brown students from entering, the school would have taken swift action to break it up, and there would have been severe consequences for those involved.

 

[Audie]

I do hope that my claim of being a victim of racism was very tongue in cheek. I was rather amazed that a significant percentage of Trump supporters do believe that racism against white people is worse than racism against black people.

Is that true or did you make it up