I see no value in atheism

[ImmortalFlame]

The Bible is an authority, it has no administrative power.

The Bible dictates doctrine claimed to be dictates by God himself. It contains within it pretty-much the entire administrative basis of the religion.

I think your definition is a bit narrow.

But you think it should be broad enough to basically consider any group that claims to be part of an ideological position as an authority?

You can choose not to kowtow to them as an authority, it's no skin off my nose. But denying it serves no purpose.

It serves plenty of purpose, because they AREN'T an authority. They have no power to dictate who are and are not atheists by their standards, and they are not "experts" on atheism.

It's the people who "do" atheism.

No it isn't, it's the people who don't "do" theism by definition. You have yet to make a single argument.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

All this phoney baloney cleverness, so typical of forum atheism.

1) Anybody who has heard of God, but doesn't believe, doesn't believe due to their reference to human reason.

Not everyone. That's an assumption on your part. There are most likely many people who don't believe in God for very irrational, emotional or intuitive reasons.

2) And the qualifications of human reason, in regards to this specific question about the ultimate nature of everything, are unproven.

Which is exactly why we should use reason and not jump to conclusions. Reason tells us "only believe something when you have sufficient justification for it". If a person is using reason, they won't attempt to make claims about anything that they cannot make sufficiently justified claims about, and must have a position of withheld belief on such claims until they are. Weak atheism is one such position.

That's all there is to it guys, and no amount of definitional dancing can change it. You can huff and puff and do the hokey pokey little logic dances all day long, and when you're done you'll still be stuck in a faith based ideology.

Which isn't necessarily bad, if one can simply accept one's faith based ideology for what it is, like theists do. I'm not against faith based ideologies, I'm against trying to call it something else.

You've said absolutely nothing which indicates that atheism is a faith-based ideology. All you've said is "human reasoning is currently limited". How, exactly does that make atheism a faith-based position?

What's driving all this logic dancing is that forum atheists are typically desperate to pose themselves as superior to theists, and desperately desiring such a thing just doesn't make it true.

Ad hominem attacks add nothing to your arguments, friend.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Are you anti American Atheist?

No. But I don't believe all atheists in the world fit their definition, nor are they required or supposed to.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I continue to disagree. Acceptance or rejection requires choice. I choice to beleive in God only because I've had enough experiences that I can't explain that make me think it's something more. If I found evidence for those experiences, I would have to readjust my thoughts and beliefs.

But you don't "choose" to accept or reject. You say so yourself: You've had enough experiences that you can't explain that make you think it's something more - and if you found evidence, you would have to readjust your views. You didn't "choose" to have experiences that you "chose" not to explain that made you "choose" to think it's something more. Your beliefs are a consequence of your experiences and your perspective, not a conscious decision you made. There may have come a point at which you were torn between acceptance and rejection, but ultimately which one is more convincing to you as a position isn't a matter of choice. It's decided by, simply, which one convinces you, and you cannot choose to find something more convincing.

What else would you call them or what they do or stand for? If atheists are non choice and the de facto position, why is there an organization at all? The point would seem to be moot, IMO.

I'd call them an ideological group. Where I live in Manchester, there is a philosophy group that meet every week who call themselves the Manchester Philosophy Society. They are not an authority on philosophy. The American Atheists are a group of atheists who have come together under a specific ideological agenda. The fact that they call themselves "American Atheists" doesn't make their position authoratative to atheism. They could just as easily called themselves "The American Secular Humanist and Materialist Society". Not every atheists is a secular humanist or materialist.

 

[ArtieE]

Atheism isn't an absence of belief, it is a belief system rejecting theism....atheists believe just like theists..only one believes there is a God, and you believe there isn't ...or are you in denial?

Are you in denial of reality?

Definition of atheism in English:
noun
[MASS NOUN]
Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

Origin
Late 16th century: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos, from a- 'without' + theos 'god'.

atheism - definition of atheism in English from the Oxford dictionary

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I agree that we can find academic examples of the usage wherein we find strong and weak atheism, explicit and implicit atheism, positive and negative atheism- these modern views are dwarfed by the number of scholarly articles we can find that define atheism like this:
"Atheism is a-theism. So: 'a,' hyphen, 'theism.' An atheist is someone who does not subscribe to the central tenets of theism. The “a” is an alpha privans, it denies what follows. So an atheist denies what the theist tries to confirm."

Cliteur, P. (2009). The definition of atheism. Journal Of Religion & Society, 11

That definition fits perfectly with weak and implicit atheism. If an atheist is described as someone who "does not subscribe to the central tenets of theism", then surely this includes all people who qualify for implicit atheism, does it not? Babies don't "subscribe to the central tenets of atheism", for example.

 

[ArtieE]

I will keep asking until you provide a relevant response....do you believe that God doesn't exist or does exist?

He answered in post 1067. Why do you ask again?

 

[JoStories]

It is what you believe. We do not choose what we believe. What on earth has the number of different religions got to do with whether or not belief is a choice? Your arguments don't make sense.

You said " we either believe or we do not" which says to me that you choose not to believe and I do. Not sure why that doesn't make sense.

 

[JoStories]

How does that follow? Sure, it is the de facto position - why would that mean that atheists can't form groups?

There is no reason they can't or couldn't but the fact that they do seem to intimate that there is some kind of collective understanding of the concept.

 

[Bunyip]

There is no reason they can't or couldn't but the fact that they do seem to intimate that there is some kind of collective understanding of the concept.

Sure, funnily enough though they are more common in the US than in Australia where religion is not considered a polite topic of discussion. I think I can understand atheists in very religious communities like Utah for example benefiting from forming an association, but here it is a bit of a moot point.
If I were say a young atheist in a religious community talking to other non- believers would sure be helpful.

 

[Bunyip]

You said " we either believe or we do not" which says to me that you choose not to believe and I do. Not sure why that doesn't make sense.

Well that is where we are having trouble understanding each other, so I can only try to clarify. I believe what I believe, it does not strike me as a choice, but as a reaction. If, for example I could chose to believe in God, I would.

 

[ArtieE]

The American Atheists are a group of atheists who have come together under a specific ideological agenda. The fact that they call themselves "American Atheists" doesn't make their position authoratative to atheism. They could just as easily called themselves "The American Secular Humanist and Materialist Society". Not every atheists is a secular humanist or materialist.

They say: "Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds."

Aims and Purposes | American Atheists

What they define here has nothing to do with atheism at all. It doesn't even mention belief in gods.

 

[Bunyip]

They say: "Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds."

What they define here has nothing to do with atheism at all. It doesn't even mention belief in gods.

Whoever 'they' are in that example, they need a dictionary. That is a truly bizarre definition, as self serving and blatantly distorted as it is possible to imagine.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

They say: "Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds."

Aims and Purposes | American Atheists

What they define here has nothing to do with atheism at all. It doesn't even mention belief in gods.

That's true. From what I've read, I'd say they just use the term "atheism" purely as a kind of convenient shorthand for their position, rather than using the definition of the word. It's frustratingly misleading, I feel.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ok well, you seem to be on track - yes atheism only has any meaning at all in reference to a specific god claim.

Atheism is not a phenomenon as such, it is not a positive claim, it is simply a response to a specific god claim. Say for example the god you are referring to is Yahweh, well I am atheist in respect to Yahweh. How I feel about other claims you need to specify first.

Well that's refreshing to hear Bunyip...i am pleased to hear you keep an open mind....may I ask for what you mean by respect to Yahweh?

And if you don't believe in atheism absolutely, then you are not really an atheist imho, more of an agnostic....and though I do not like labels generally, they can be helpful to navigate through the maze of belief systems....do you consider yourself an agnostic?

 

[Typist]

Not everyone. That's an assumption on your part. There are most likely many people who don't believe in God for very irrational, emotional or intuitive reasons.

Please introduce us to the person who became atheist without reference to human reason.

If a person is using reason, they won't attempt to make claims about anything that they cannot make sufficiently justified claims about, and must have a position of withheld belief on such claims until they are.

Yes, unless we have proof that the rules of human are binding upon all of reality, we shouldn't go around making claims based on that assumption. I agree with the principles of atheism, I am complaining about the fact that forum atheists rarely apply those principles to their own position.

It's not reason to apply the test only to the other fellow's position. That's ideology. As I have attempted to explain 1,000 times to no effect.

You've said absolutely nothing which indicates that atheism is a faith-based ideology.

In fact, I've explained this in detail over and over again about 100 times all over the forum including in this thread.

All you've said is "human reasoning is currently limited".

No, I didn't say that either. You appear to have a reading disorder.

Ad hominem attacks add nothing to your arguments, friend.

They are not ad hominem attacks. I'm attempting to explain why forum atheists typically relentlessly stick to the same very basic clueless positions for years at a time. It's because they can't let go of the notion that they are superior to theists. It's a purely emotional agenda, which is why reason can not touch their opinion.

I'm sorry if that's too personal for some, but if there is to be any hope of such conversations going anywhere other than round and round in a tiny pointless circle, the reality of the situation sooner or later has to be addressed.

 

[Jumi]

Please introduce us to the person who became atheist without reference to human reason.

I did.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Are you in denial of reality?

Definition of atheism in English:
noun
[MASS NOUN]
Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

Origin
Late 16th century: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos, from a- 'without' + theos 'god'.

atheism - definition of atheism in English from the Oxford dictionary

You seem to be a one trick pony posting the same old stuff....and all the while this thread is showing us that atheists in reality do not all dance to the same tune..

So to see where you fit in...may I ask you if you believe in atheism?

 

[Willamena]

The Bible dictates doctrine claimed to be dictates by God himself. It contains within it pretty-much the entire administrative basis of the religion.


But you think it should be broad enough to basically consider any group that claims to be part of an ideological position as an authority?


It serves plenty of purpose, because they AREN'T an authority. They have no power to dictate who are and are not atheists by their standards, and they are not "experts" on atheism.


No it isn't, it's the people who don't "do" theism by definition. You have yet to make a single argument.

I cannot see any authority having the power to dictate who we are, so I guess we disagree on another thing.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

He answered in post 1067. Why do you ask again?

Why don't you do an audit of the thread progress before you are shoot your mouth off and are left with egg all over your face Artie...

His answer in post 1067 was...."I do not believe god does not exist."

To which I pointed out in my post 1083 that ."I do not believe god does not exist." actually means...I believe in god...

Were you are aware Artie that Mestemia was a closet theist....haha...