I see no value in atheism

[Ben Dhyan]

I know no god exist. Its a difference from belief. 1 + 1 = 2 I don't believe the answer is 2 I know it is.

So your question is fallacious. It would be the same as asking if I believe in 2

Haha...that is the oldest one in the book...theists use it also...even I have used it in earlier times.... But in fact, your "knowing that no god exists" then become s the belief..

So your belief that you know no god exists is the what you need to accept to become a true to yourself...of honest heart and mind...delusion is no the way forward if you want to meet your mark in this life...

 

[outhouse]

Actually, "I believe in no god" is grammatically correct.

Depends on the context George.

When I first started here I did not know what to believe. In time I realized I did not believe in a deity.


In time with knowledge and lots of education, I came to lose that belief as it became knowledge, not a belief.

The same as 1 + 1 = 2. George, do you believe the answer is 2 or do you know it is 2 ???????????

 

[outhouse]

What do you call someone who is not a theist?

 

[Curious George]

What do you call someone who is not a theist?

Not a theist seems like a perfectly good term.

 

[outhouse]

...delusion is no the way forward if you want to meet your mark in this life...

Your opinion is worthless to me. And it seems many others here.

You have no business of speaking of truth or honesty or calling anyone delusional because they don't see things your way.

You have no business making personal attacks which are against forum rules.

 

[outhouse]

Not a theist seems like a perfectly good term.

Well George, we already have a name for people who are not theist.

Why do you dislike the term atheist? is the real question and the heart of the matter here, its why this thread keeps on going no matter how many times the definition gets posted.


Is it that theist cannot stand the thought they could be wrong?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Supply credible sources.

What credibility do you possess here to call anyone dishonest?

Is it not a sign of desperation when in fact we have provided credible sources the current definition of implicit atheism does not require a conscious rejection of the concept of theism.

Oh come on....do these two sentences mean the same thing? ...I believe there is no Hell ....I disbelieve in Hell

If someone claims the second sentence doesn't mean the same thing as the first.... it just means I have no belief about Hell not existing, I know is doesn't exist....one would know the person is deluded....

You can't know god doesn't exist, you can only believe....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Your opinion is worthless to me. And it seems many others here.

You have no business of speaking of truth or honesty or calling anyone delusional because they don't see things your way.

You have no business making personal attacks which are against forum rules.

Oh here we go...when the shades of deception surrounding atheists claim of non-belief is being lifted to show their nakedness....the lock the thread option is raised..
When I use the term delusion...i am not using it as a personal attack...it is logical observation about atheists who are purposely distorting the meaning of the English language to maintain a fiction...that of not believing there is no God....

 

[Curious George]

Well George, we already have a name for people who are not theist.

Why do you dislike the term atheist? is the real question and the heart of the matter here, its why this thread keeps on going no matter how many times the definition gets posted.


Is it that theist cannot stand the thought they could be wrong?

I am not sure what you are talking about here. I am certainly not wrong. But, I am certainly not a theist. I believe in no god

 

[outhouse]

I am not sure what you are talking about here

You seemed to avoid using the term atheist, and were in favor of using the term non theist.

What is wrong with the term atheism ?

 

[Curious George]

Well George, we already have a name for people who are not theist.

Why do you dislike the term atheist? is the real question and the heart of the matter here, its why this thread keeps on going no matter how many times the definition gets posted.


Is it that theist cannot stand the thought they could be wrong?

I would be considered what some are terming a "strong atheist" or what others are terming, simply an atheist. While I do not mind either label, I am aware that this is a belief, I am aware that this technically involves a leap of faith, and I am aware that many people quibble over the definition. I happen to recognize that the people who use the term "atheist" to mean someone who believes god does not exist, have a stronger argument than the ones who want to say atheist means not theist. But, I could use either definition to get my point across, so no real skin off of my back.

 

[Curious George]

You seemed to avoid using the term atheist, and were in favor of using the term non theist.

What is wrong with the term atheism ?

I see no "problem" with the term. I see people arguing over the term. People define the term differently. Both sides seem to think that the other side has no merit in their definition. I think that it is a giant game of semantics. However, in this giant game of semantics the side who has atheism defined as a belief that god does not exist have a stronger argument.

 

[outhouse]

to mean someone who believes god does not exist, have a stronger argument than the ones who want to say atheist means not theist.

There is no argument though.

Atheism is an umbrella term that fills a wiki page describing how to define the concept.

To date, a belief there is no god is the standard definition as you say. But one can still be an atheist without a conscious rejection of theism.

It comes down simply to the fact if one is not a theist, he is an atheist. Atheist also mean not theist.

Like it or not explicit and implicit atheism are academic descriptions of the concept.

Add to that, you might be failing to understand that whens beliefs become strong enough, they evolve from belief to knowledge. I don't believe a god does not exist, I know he does not exist.

I gave you a prime example, you don't believe 2 is the answer to 1 + 1 do you?

 

[outhouse]

People define the term differently.

They do. Its a theist problem as I see it. They refuse the academic definition.

Many theist have problems with academia for various reasons which encompass fanaticism and fundamentalism.

However, in this giant game of semantics the side who has atheism defined as a belief that god does not exist have a stronger argument.

There is no argument though. And I would hate to guess how many atheist currently have a belief.

I honestly admit at one time I did have a belief. I no longer have that belief because it is knowledge, there is no man made deity in my life, in any part of it.

I know there is no god of any kind the same exact way you know that 2 is the answer to 1 + 1

 

[outhouse]

The Scope of Atheism

(a) An implicit atheist is a person who does not believe in a god, but who has not explicitly rejected or denied the truth of theism. Implicit atheism does not require familiarity with the idea of a god.

(b) An explicit atheist is one who rejects belief in a god.


Simple as that. But even that still does not cover the concept. It takes a page as it is not black and white, and THUS it cannot be hand waived away by a few words either.

Nor can it be attacked because you disagree with the definition.

 

[Curious George]

There is no argument though.

Atheism is an umbrella term that fills a wiki page describing how to define the concept.

To date, a belief there is no god is the standard definition as you say. But one can still be an atheist without a conscious rejection of theism.

It comes down simply to the fact if one is not a theist, he is an atheist. Atheist also mean not theist.

Like it or not explicit and implicit atheism are academic descriptions of the concept.

Add to that, you might be failing to understand that whens beliefs become strong enough, they evolve from belief to knowledge. I don't believe a god does not exist, I know he does not exist.

I gave you a prime example, you don't believe 2 is the answer to 1 + 1 do you?

I agree that we can find academic examples of the usage wherein we find strong and weak atheism, explicit and implicit atheism, positive and negative atheism- these modern views are dwarfed by the number of scholarly articles we can find that define atheism like this:
"Atheism is a-theism. So: 'a,' hyphen, 'theism.' An atheist is someone who does not subscribe to the central tenets of theism. The “a” is an alpha privans, it denies what follows. So an atheist denies what the theist tries to confirm."

Cliteur, P. (2009). The definition of atheism. Journal Of Religion & Society, 11

 

[Bunyip]

Yes ot does Bunyip....Using your profound understanding of English grammar, prove to me that it does not have the same meaning...

....and please no answer me this.....do you believe in theism? yes or no....

I don't actually feel any need to 'prove' any grammatical point to you Ben. And yes I believe in theism - theism exists, it is a real phenomenon, I believe it exists.

 

[Bunyip]

Actually, "I believe in no god" is grammatically correct. Consider for comparison the famous "I fear no evil."

It is grammatically correct - but a different claim.

As an interpretation of the claim: I disbelieve in god it is a mistranslation. Disbelieving in God, does not equate to any broader claim - it is a response to a specific god claim.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I don't actually feel any need to 'prove' any grammatical point to you Ben. And yes I believe in theism - theism exists, it is a real phenomenon, I believe it exists.

So I asked you back on page 55 (post 1092)..."Do you believe in Atheism?" ..and you answered...."No" (post 1093) ....and that's why I asked if you you believed in Theism, to see how your mind works....and in this case, your answer is "Yes" Now I understand what you mean about believing in Theism as a phenomenon, but I don't understand why you do not believe in Atheism absolutely. Is not Atheism a phenomenon? Looking forward to your answer...buddy

 

[Bunyip]

So I asked you back on page 55 (post 1093)..."Do you believe in Atheism?" ..and you answered...."No" ....and that's why I asked if you you believed in Theism, to see how your mind works....and in this case, your answer is "Yes" Now I I understand what you mean about believing in Theism as a phenomenon, but I don't understand why you do not believe in Atheism absolutely. Is not Atheism a phenomenon? Looking forward to your answer...buddy

Ok well, you seem to be on track - yes atheism only has any meaning at all in reference to a specific god claim. Atheism is not a phenomenon as such, it is not a positive claim, it is simply a response to a specific god claim. Say for example the god you are referring to is Yahweh, well I am atheist in respect to Yahweh. How I feel about other claims you need to specify first.