I swear to god that i'm a non believer

[stvdv]

If there is an all powerful all knowing God then that God is guilty of all evil on this world.

I agree

 

[stvdv]

But i do wish people world not use the word truth to mean faith

I also wish a few things .... language and words can definitely be sometimes confusing.

I have a question about Truth and Faith ... how you, as an Atheist, see these. Not to debate; just to understand you and avoid miscommunication.

Personally I am not good at "blind believing", hence I like science. I also have Faith(=trust) in Science (but I know Science also makes mistakes, hence my personal experience tops even Science). If I had no Faith in Science then Science could never lead me to the Truth, even if it could lead others to the Truth. I have no blind Faith in Religions. Some do have interesting views which I can accept if my personal experience agrees with it.

So to me Faith (meaning trust) is completely different from Truth. Faith is the start, Truth the end (maybe). I was not aware that people thought Truth means Faith.

Brings me to the other question:"what does Truth mean to you". Many people claim to know the Truth, but these Truths are not the same, so it seems those are relative Truths. Maybe there is an absolute Truth which is the same to all. To me Absolute Truth is never changing. Then Gravitational Force, which is changing, (on the moon it's 6 times smaller than on earth) can not be an Absolute Truth.

So to me it seems that Absolute Truth might be hard to find on Earth. Even 1+9=10 is a Relative Truth (as in Relative to decimal counting).

When you use the word "truth" do you mean "Relative Truth" or "Absolute Truth" and do you agree to "Truth can not change"? And if you agree to that, did you find already "Absolute Truth" ... I mean if Big Bang comes ... Earth is Gone as might be Truth found on Earth.

To make it easy for you as an Atheist ... I don't believe in "Christian God concept", so I'm not trying to find this kind of "Absolute Truth". Maybe Big Bang is close to "Absolute Truth", although thinking about it now, Big Bang could imply there is a Small Bang, which would make it Relative Truth (I myself am not even sure if Absolute Truth can be found by Relative Human (me. being perishable) though)

And please don't get upset that I fancy to capitalise some words where you prefer to not capitalise these. I prefer to focus on the bigger picture.

I will be gone for a while soon, so probably not read your reply this year anymore. If so, best wishes for the New Year

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

How does it matter whether there is a God or not: we still have to deal with evil if there is evil. What is your proof that there is evil?

Seven chances to prove to me there is something useful invented/discovered by faith(religion).

Until you prove your god is real? Anything you claim about 'god' is moot.

As for evil? Humans invented 'evil', therefore, humans get to define what it is.

Until the god-sellers show us the 'money' (i.e. actual god(s))?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It is still appropriate advice to be an atheist because to all intents and purposes, God does not deal with human beings for their salvation. This is the impression I got from my years of association with God so much so that I was diagnosed as clinical sufferer of persistent delusional disorder for which I am exploring Buddhism now.

BOLD: Citation needed: What is 'god' and can you show such a thing is real?

 

[stvdv]

by faith(religion).

That is a good addition "religion". I don't believe in Christian Religion. For me Faith means "trust", as in "Trust in Science" or "Trust in people" (very few though)

But above all Faith means to me "Trust in myself AND in my own experiences"

Edit: I don't believe in Christian Religion is what Christians told me, because I believe "Jesus is not the only way for everyone". I do respect Christian Religion and believe there are many good things I can learn from the Bible and Jesus His living example.

 

[Shantanu]

BOLD: Citation needed: What is 'god' and can you show such a thing is real?

No. I do not have any concrete proof that there is a God: it is all speculation.

 

[ChristineM]

I also wish a few things .... language and words can definitely be sometimes confusing.

I have a question about Truth and Faith ... how you, as an Atheist, see these. Not to debate; just to understand you and avoid miscommunication.

Personally I am not good at "blind believing", hence I like science. I also have Faith(=trust) in Science (but I know Science also makes mistakes, hence my personal experience tops even Science). If I had no Faith in Science then Science could never lead me to the Truth, even if it could lead others to the Truth. I have no blind Faith in Religions. Some do have interesting views which I can accept if my personal experience agrees with it.

So to me Faith (meaning trust) is completely different from Truth. Faith is the start, Truth the end (maybe). I was not aware that people thought Truth means Faith.

Brings me to the other question:"what does Truth mean to you". Many people claim to know the Truth, but these Truths are not the same, so it seems those are relative Truths. Maybe there is an absolute Truth which is the same to all. To me Absolute Truth is never changing. Then Gravitational Force, which is changing, (on the moon it's 6 times smaller than on earth) can not be an Absolute Truth.

So to me it seems that Absolute Truth might be hard to find on Earth. Even 1+9=10 is a Relative Truth (as in Relative to decimal counting).

When you use the word "truth" do you mean "Relative Truth" or "Absolute Truth" and do you agree to "Truth can not change"? And if you agree to that, did you find already "Absolute Truth" ... I mean if Big Bang comes ... Earth is Gone as might be Truth found on Earth.

To make it easy for you as an Atheist ... I don't believe in "Christian God concept", so I'm not trying to find this kind of "Absolute Truth". Maybe Big Bang is close to "Absolute Truth", although thinking about it now, Big Bang could imply there is a Small Bang, which would make it Relative Truth.

And please don't get upset that I fancy to capitalise some words where you prefer to not capitalise these. I prefer to focus on the bigger picture.

I will be gone for a while soon, so probably not read your reply this year anymore. If so, best wishes for the New Year

Truth : that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

Faith : trust or confidence in someone or something.

I tend to go by the accepted definition. Unfortunately in recent years the faith is truth brigade seem to have a new definition of truth : that which is believed to be true.

To me truth is what can be shown to be true.

Truth can change if evidence force's change, for example, "there are no round squares" will, in all probability and 3dimensions, never change. However, "i am 48 years old" will change in just over 3 months.

It is uncertain what effect another bb will have, without getting in to places i am not qualified to go. Chances are it could simply form another universe separate to our own. It is possible that it happens often on the quantum level within vacuum bubbles

Something to think about while you are away ;-)

Bonne année à toi

 

[stvdv]

Truth : that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

Faith : trust or confidence in someone or something.

I tend to go by the accepted definition. Unfortunately in recent years the faith is truth brigade seem to have a new definition of truth : that which is believed to be true.

To me truth is what can be shown to be true.

Truth can change if evidence force's change, for example, "there are no round squares" will, in all probability and 3dimensions, never change. However, "i am 48 years old" will change in just over 3 months.

It is uncertain what effect another bb will have, without getting in to places i am not qualified to go. Chances are it could simply form another universe separate to our own. It is possible that it happens often on the quantum level within vacuum bubbles

Something to think about while you are away ;-)

Bonne année à toi

Thanks for answering. Just in time to take it with me. Good to know your definition of truth. I have truth defined a little different (that which never changes). For you truth can change. I would call it "facts can change". So when answering you and probably other atheists I will keep your definition in mind, to avoid misunderstandings.

Good to read that Faith need have nothing to do with Religion. Another big misunderstanding I came across quite a few times on RF recently

Merci ChristineM (I used to be really good in French, even I was dreaming in French. But not been practising for like 38 years I forgot most).

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Whatever theory thinks fits the evidence (and mathematics)

Perhaps you did not read the post you replied to. I quote :-

"In actual fact no first cause is required because the laws of thermodynamics did not begin to coalesce until after the bb"

In this universe this is fact. That is not to say it is the only option. Various hypothesis offer different options, quantum membranes, colliding or budding universes, leaking dimensions and more.

But to ask what is the same as asking how god does god magic... Do you know?

I read your post and that which you reiterate in the quote above. The point being your statement doesn't make sense.
And yes, that the universe exists is a fact. However, for atheists like yourself to insist scientific theory is a superior and alternative suggestion as to why all things do exist, including the universe, scientific theory would have to operate on fact. Not theoretical physics, string theory, etc...

And your question using the phrase god magic, is a shameful ignorant dodge. And a transparent weak attempt at insulting theist.

 

[ChristineM]

I read your post and that which you reiterate in the quote above. The point being your statement doesn't make sense.
And yes, that the universe exists is a fact. However, for atheists like yourself to insist scientific theory is a superior and alternative suggestion as to why all things do exist, including the universe, scientific theory would have to operate on fact. Not theoretical physics, string theory, etc...

And your question using the phrase god magic, is a shameful ignorant dodge. And a transparent weak attempt at insulting theist.

It doesnt make sense when you use confirmation bias as your educator. The law of causality, i.e the second law of thermodynamics did not begin to coalesce until after the bb.

I know of no atheist who insists science is the superior answer, all you need to do is present a plausible hypothesis that the cause was supernatural.

Scientific hypothesis of the cause of the bb must meet certain criteria, i.e there must be logical, mathematical or/and observational reasons to form the hypothesis. The same would apply to god magic.

I do realise this is totally unfair to believers in god magic who idea of a hypothesis is, 'I dont know so god'

So what else would you call a god making a universe out of nothing other than magic?


Edit. Please learn the difference between hypothesis and theory

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That is a good addition "religion". I don't believe in Christian Religion. For me Faith means "trust", as in "Trust in Science" or "Trust in people" (very few though)

But above all Faith means to me "Trust in myself AND in my own experiences"

False Equivalency Logical Fallacy*. From the context, you know I never meant "trust".

I meant the first definition of "faith" as listed in most dictionaries: "belief in something for which there is no credible evidence".

But nice attempt to deflect.

Still zero discoveries/inventions by faith/religion alone.


* I think that's the correct logical fallacy. Using different meanings of a word, often within the same paragraph, then pretending they are equivalent, is so common among folk, there ought to be a name for it...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No. I do not have any concrete proof that there is a God: it is all speculation.

Kudos, for Honesty. I'll raise a cuppa <favorite beverage> the next time I have a drink, to your integrity.

<salute>

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I read your post and that which you reiterate in the quote above. The point being your statement doesn't make sense.
And yes, that the universe exists is a fact. However, for atheists like yourself to insist scientific theory is a superior and alternative suggestion as to why all things do exist, including the universe, scientific theory would have to operate on fact. Not theoretical physics, string theory, etc...

And your question using the phrase god magic, is a shameful ignorant dodge. And a transparent weak attempt at insulting theist.

I note in the above, that @TheresOnlyNow claims that theists can show that the scientific method is not automatically superior-- but never bothers to support that claim with so much as a single example.

I would love to see an example of something-- anything-- that was discovered/invented by faith alone.

But I expect to either be ignored (most common) or some reply along the lines of "well, I could list things, but I won't for <insert silly excuse here>"

So it stands, that the scientific method remains superior in every way that counts, to faith-based methods.

 

[Shantanu]

Kudos, for Honesty. I'll raise a cuppa <favorite beverage> the next time I have a drink, to your integrity.

<salute>

I am just a very intelligent person who knows how to survive in comfort and joy without the need to bring in a God for my blessings. I should have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize by now.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

I note in the above, that @TheresOnlyNow claims that theists can show that the scientific method is not automatically superior.....

How do you quote my remarks and then misrepresent the truth of what they actually say right below those quoted remarks?
Here's what I actually said: "However, for atheists like yourself to insist scientific theory is a superior and alternative suggestion as to why all things do exist, including the universe, scientific theory would have to operate on fact. Not theoretical physics, string theory, etc..."

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Seven chances to prove to me there is something useful invented/discovered by faith(religion).

Until you prove your god is real? Anything you claim about 'god' is moot.

As for evil? Humans invented 'evil', therefore, humans get to define what it is.

Until the god-sellers show us the 'money' (i.e. actual god(s))?

You forget or overlook intentionally Galileo?

Religious implications of recent discoveries in science
Dec 2, 2010

Besides the fact that one has to have faith in order to first believe the universe is governed in some way. Hence the continual search for that which preceded and thus enabled the so called big bang.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

I am just a very intelligent person who knows how to survive in comfort and joy without the need to bring in a God for my blessings. I should have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize by now.

Aren't you the member that once said your spiritual quest resulted in your arriving at the conclusion that you are God?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You forget or overlook intentionally Galileo?.

No. Only by REJECTING OUT OF HAND, the religious dogma he had been brainwashed with, does Galileo actually discover anything new.

He's not an example of using faith to discover new, or invent new things.

Religious implications of recent discoveries in science
Dec 2, 2010

False. Only by ignoring what religion (faith) has taught individuals, can New Discoveries, New Ideas come to be.

The fact that once discovered, these have sometimes severe impact on religious dogma?

Is not the fault of the scientific method, but rather exposes the fact that faith is utterly useless at discovering ... anything.

Besides the fact that one has to have faith in order to first believe the universe is governed in some way. Hence the continual search for that which preceded and thus enabled the so called big bang..

False. For one? "governed in some way"? What does that even mean?

Do you mean 'gravity'? The use of the word "governed" strongly (and falsely) implies some magical intelligence or some such.

Gravity is the reason why the universe behaves as it appears to behave, but gravity isn't sentient, no is gravity magic. Nor can gravity grant wishes (prayers). It simply is, and is no more a "god" than a piece of granite or limestone.

 

[stvdv]

But nice attempt to deflect.
Still zero discoveries/inventions by faith/religion alone.

I did not deflect. What I had in mind when replying to you with the below line, were my personal experiences due to "my Faith alone":
And for your information "I could name quite a few things that I invented/discovered by Faith alone".

1) I had immense health problems (doctors could not find my problems). I had Faith in my Master. My Master came into my dream and told me "you need to inject B12". I went to the hospital and my B12 was down to 16 pmol/L (which should be more than 200). The doctor freaked out completely. If My Master had not told me, I would have never known and maybe not been alive anymore (such a low number is really dangerous). So by Faith alone (in My Master) I discovered my B12 problem.

 

[ChristineM]

I did not deflect. What I had in mind when replying to you with the below line, were my personal experiences due to "my Faith alone":
And for your information "I could name quite a few things that I invented/discovered by Faith alone".

1) I had immense health problems (doctors could not find my problems). I had Faith in my Master. My Master came into my dream and told me "you need to inject B12". I went to the hospital and my B12 was down to 16 pmol/L (which should be more than 200). The doctor freaked out completely. If My Master had not told me, I would have never known and maybe not been alive anymore (such a low number is really dangerous). So by Faith alone (in My Master) I discovered my B12 problem.

A simple blood test should have detected that. If you had health problems why wasn't a blood test taken?