I think Islam is a totalitarian ideology with a religious facet.

[Tomorrows_Child]

I have seen almost all muslims try to steer the debate into their what I will call myth based philosophy. While always ignoring relevant questions.

Sorry you do not get to steer anything here.

Ok, so you concede this argument, considering I didn't mention a single myth and mentioned only scientific facts whereas you asked me, twice, about myths. If you want to talk about myths, stick to lord of the rings.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Many cultures independently discovered, since ancient times, that the earth is spherical in shape.

That is not really accurate. There is the concept of the Caliphate, but if there is no Caliphate (of which there are officially none) then there is no theocracy to submit to.

For a proper Caliphate, it must have the support of the Ummah. That is why Boko Haram and ISIS have not established a Caliphate, because they do not have the support of the Ummah.

I'm not sure how true that is and I know some modern historians will try and claim that but fair enough. What you have to understand is, that's not the only scientific claim in the Quran, we are told of the structures of the mountains (only discovered in the last century), the formation of the universe (only discovered in the last century), the stages of embryonic development and so on. This argument that other, ancient cultures had similar ideas and scientific discoveries, although we full well know they have only been proven by science in the last 200 years doesn't work and even so, if the Quran was being copied, how did they know to copy only that which was right?

The other argument I've seen, by a supposedly smart atheist on this thread is that it was all guess...how many guesses can one make that are 100% accurate?

 

[Mycroft]

Sorry its not exactly like that bud.

There is a difference between church and state in western countries.

That is not true for most of islam, it is a total way of life ingrained much deeper then western religion.

Heaven is a totalitarian state. Last time I checked, all Christians wanted to to Heaven.

 

[outhouse]

Ok, so you concede this argument

Not with you.

You never started to debate. You have no participated yet. You ignore everything and try and steer the debate in theological circles you create, instead of addressing the context of said topic.

 

[outhouse]

Heaven is a totalitarian state. Last time I checked, all Christians wanted to to Heaven.

Yep we have roughly 4B people who think they can cheat death.

But context was church and state, and islams combination of the two, and the free western world that divides the two.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm not sure how true that is and I know some modern historians will try and claim that but fair enough.

It is an accurate statement. It doesn't take any special equipment to discover the earth is round and rotates around the sun, only keen observation.

What you have to understand is, that's not the only scientific claim in the Quran, we are told of the structures of the mountains (only discovered in the last century), the formation of the universe (only discovered in the last century), the stages of embryonic development and so on.

With the Koran, many of the "scientific" statements are either blatantly false or were well known by certain peoples of the time. Really, it's more of a fault of today's time in assuming that everyone of ages past were dumb and illiterate. The Quran states a geocentric model of the solar system, it says stars are missiles for devils, it has a sky that can be rolled up and a sun that can be folded, and there is also that bit about salt and fresh waters not mixing.

 

[outhouse]

Really, it's more of a fault of today's time in assuming that everyone of ages past were dumb and illiterate.

Some of he things they did in the past we cannot recreate today.

They "primitive people" were masters with stone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some of he things they did in the past we cannot recreate today.

They "primitive people" were masters with stone.

Not only with stones, but even their least competent could survive in the wilderness much easier than our most competent of boy/girl scouts. Not having all the "high-tech" gear, they were probably also better hunters. They were probably also much more resourceful, as it's just not something we have to be concerned with today. We may have rockets and computers today, but tribal bone setters are known for being exceptionally good at what they do and they had impressive results in medicine without chemistry. And of course they didn't need sophisticated equipment to track the seasons and weather changes, but they had their own methods and devices because life often depended on it. We've even had standards in measurements and weights for a very long time.

 

[YmirGF]

The verse I have. 79:30, “And we have made the earth egg shaped”.

Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning 79:30
Muhammad Asad And after that, the earth: wide has He spread its expanse,
M. M. Pickthall And after that He spread the earth,
Shakir And the earth, He expanded it after that.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar And, after that, He spread out the earth.
Wahiduddin Khan and the earth which He spread out,
T.B.Irving and the earth has He spread out besides,
[Al-Muntakhab] and the earth did He prepare for life at a later date.*
[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition) And the land after that He spread out.
Abdel Haleem and the earth, too, He spread out,
Abdul Majid Daryabadi And the earth!- thereafter He stretched it out.
Ahmed Ali And afterwards spread out the earth.
Aisha Bewley After that He smoothed out the earth
Ali Ünal And after that He has spread out the earth in the egg-shape (for habitability).
Ali Quli Qara'i and after that He spread out the earth,
Hamid S. Aziz And after that He expanded (spread) the earth.
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali And the earth, after that He flattened it (for life).
Muhammad Sarwar After this, He spread out the earth,
Muhammad Taqi Usmani and, after that, He spread out the earth.
Shabbir Ahmed And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped. ('Dahaha' entails all the meanings rendered (21:30), (41:11)).
Syed Vickar Ahamed And more, He has extended the earth (far and wide also in the shape of an egg):
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) And after that He spread the earth.
Farook Malik After that He spread out the earth,
Dr. Munir Munshey And after that, He spread out the earth.
Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri And He is the One Who, later, (after the creation of the planet sun) separated (from it) the earth, flung it with centrifugal force (and spread its expanse to make it inhabitable).
Dr. Kamal Omar And the earth, after this stage, He gave it an oval form.
Talal A. Itani (new translation) And the earth after that He spread.
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition) And the earth, moreover, has He extended.
Maududi and thereafter spread out the earth,
[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)

And the land after that He spread out.


Isn't a bit odd that so many famous translations failed to render the passage as being egg-shaped? Strange, really. It's almost like there is a concerted effort to bend what the original text actually says.

<Source>

For the record, one does not normally "spread out" a sphere, but one certainly spreads out a carpet. This passage is more indicative of a flat earth scenario than anything.

 

[outhouse]

Not only with stones, but even their least competent could survive in the wilderness much easier than our most competent of boy/girl scouts. Not having all the "high-tech" gear, they were probably also better hunters. They were probably also much more resourceful, as it's just not something we have to be concerned with today. We may have rockets and computers today, but tribal bone setters are known for being exceptionally good at what they do and they had impressive results in medicine without chemistry. And of course they didn't need sophisticated equipment to track the seasons and weather changes, but they had their own methods and devices because life often depended on it. We've even had standards in measurements and weights for a very long time.

So true.

I can tell you for what they had to work with they did an amazing job. Romans were doing cataract surgery back then! they did glass work our craftsmen are still figuring out.


Their dental plans were a bit rough LOL lost the queen of Egypt that way, but still amazing what some did.


Now despite all this these poor primitive people [I know its not proper term] had it rough, the mortality rate was terrible and disease was rampant.

 

[Mycroft]

Yep we have roughly 4B people who think they can cheat death.

But context was church and state, and islams combination of the two, and the free western world that divides the two.

The Church and State aren't so separated as people would like to believe in America. Try claiming to be an atheist or Muslim and then running for president, I very much doubt you'd get many votes.

 

[outhouse]

The Church and State aren't so separated as people would like to believe in America.

Because politics pander to the majority of the population, does not mean laws and rules of this country surround this theology.

WE have laws regarding freedom from religion and mythology.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm not sure how true that is and I know some modern historians will try and claim that but fair enough. What you have to understand is, that's not the only scientific claim in the Quran, we are told of the structures of the mountains (only discovered in the last century), the formation of the universe (only discovered in the last century), the stages of embryonic development and so on. This argument that other, ancient cultures had similar ideas and scientific discoveries, although we full well know they have only been proven by science in the last 200 years doesn't work and even so, if the Quran was being copied, how did they know to copy only that which was right?

The other argument I've seen, by a supposedly smart atheist on this thread is that it was all guess...how many guesses can one make that are 100% accurate?

How about the part about salt water and fresh water not mixing?

 

[Aquitaine]

Show me the verse where the Quran says the earth is flat. Completely flat. An unequivocal statement by God. I don't want something that can be interpreted in different ways by people with an agenda. I want the actual shape of the earth and an unarguable statement from God in the Quran.

The verse I have. 79:30, “And we have made the earth egg shaped”.

There can be no argument here. How would you interpret egg? Would it be flat? So I'd like a similarly unequivocal statement. Thanks.

If you don't want something that can be misinterpreted by people with an agenda, then why do you uphold the Quran as the "word of God"?
I've never understood why people claim divine pure communication through books which are written in languages that are prone to subjective human interpretation.

 

[Aquitaine]

How about the part about salt water and fresh water not mixing?

@Tomorrows_Child
And sperm coming from the tip of the spine, and humans being made of clay, and the heavens and the earth "splitting in two". . .

Honestly, there have been countless "scientific miracles in the Quran" threads on this site, that universally always end up debunked rather thoroughly. The Muslims who continue to perpetuate the "scientific miracles" myth should simply be honest and accept that their religion and scripture relies on faith, not science.

 

[outhouse]

If you don't want something that can be misinterpreted by people with an agenda, then why do you uphold the Quran as the "word of God"?

I think it is part of the fanaticism required by all followers. No middle ground in this belief.

 

[Aquitaine]

I think it is part of the fanaticism required by all followers. No middle ground in this belief.

Perhaps so. . .

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Show me the verse where the Quran says the earth is flat. Completely flat. An unequivocal statement by God. I don't want something that can be interpreted in different ways by people with an agenda. I want the actual shape of the earth and an unarguable statement from God in the Quran.

The verse I have. 79:30, “And we have made the earth egg shaped”.

There can be no argument here. How would you interpret egg? Would it be flat? So I'd like a similarly unequivocal statement. Thanks.

Many claim that the word "He spread the" means made spherical or oval, and as usual, this is the word of the elders who spread the ignorant and lying between the poor Muslims who are victims of these elders ignorant and believe them without any research behind them, here we show the meaning spoke "He spread" in the complex ancient Arabic dictionaries, we beseech to look for meaning in the old and new books are not written by Sheikh shadows and Satan, the Lord bless
This talk scholars
An-naziat verse 30
He spread the earth
Make it any flat
They spread the word because the settlement means
That is why in the Holy Land flat, not spherical

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Show me the verse where the Quran says the earth is flat. Completely flat. An unequivocal statement by God. I don't want something that can be interpreted in different ways by people with an agenda. I want the actual shape of the earth and an unarguable statement from God in the Quran.

The verse I have. 79:30, “And we have made the earth egg shaped”.

There can be no argument here. How would you interpret egg? Would it be flat? So I'd like a similarly unequivocal statement. Thanks.

I provided you with the name of the sura verse number
You should know that the translation is not accurate because the word does not exist in spherical Koran Arabic Bsnkhth
Write verse in Arabic

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I made you verses from the Koran and the number two prove that the earth is not spherical
The first is
The Zulkarnain arrived in Morocco the sun and how the sun sets at the
This means that the earth is flat, not spherical
Because the sun is known to miss from the earth,
But the movement of its light from side to side