i think jesus was confused...or maybe luke and john were

[Muffled]

thats my point...a belief based on the lack of empirical evidence.

you are giving license to this sort of thing...
"the holy spirit told me that the bible is just a practical joke and there is nothing you can say to change my mind because the holy spirit told me so, so there"

well then jesus was confused
john 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.


:spit: so the kiss was necessary for jesus in the synoptic gospels and not necessary in john...? :areyoucra how many jesus' are we talking about...? how many times was he betrayed? :biglaugh:

pay attention...
it isn't about ommission it's about context...john is describing a jesus that contradicts a jesus in mark or luke or matthew...
jesus is distressed in those gospels jesus is not showing any signs of distress in john.
context context context....the context in the synoptic gospels are contradicting the context in john.

watch for what then? if you are going to argue this point then you are going to have to tell me what they were watching for?
well?


john 14:31...takes them out of the foot washing orgy or was it the last supper...i don't know...
31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

“Come now; let us leave.

john 15, 16 and 17 jesus says this...

15:1 “I am the true vine,

16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

now compare this confident jesus with
mark 14:34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”

matthew 26:38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”

luke 22:39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

context context context...
so tell me how is one to sweat blood from anguish while also telling his disciples he is the vine, and he is glorified and to take heart? it doesn't make any sense.

did jesus ask them to ask if they should draw their swords?

When I turn on my light, I don't have any empirical evidence of a flow of electricity. I simply accept the teaching that the light comes on because of electricity. Granted an elctrician could get empirical evidence but that doesn't change anything for me. I still have to accpt it on faith. So the matter is this, that empirical evidence is available but not necessarily to those who don't have superior knowledge as an electrician does.

That does happen but even then the person has to give a reason why they believe it to be so. I would rule such a statement as not coming from the Holy Spirit because it isn't consistent with scripture.

You are in error when you say "the kiss was necessary." It is not necessary for John to report on the kiss because the other authors did report on it. There is one Jesus and He was betrayed by Judas once in the garden.

Feel free to point out a contradiction but you have not yet done so. You can say "context" until the cows come home but a word by itself doesn't mean much.

Do you know how to read? The word "for" is not in the text. If the text had said "keep vigil" which is what is meant, then you would understand but you have this bizarre belief that "watch" automatically means "watch for." Not only that but the context defintely means that Jesus wanted His disciples to pray with Him.

So. It is not a contradiction. Jesus is not having a problem with the events. He is quite confident of what will happen but that does not mean that contemplating going through them is pleasant. re the dentist analogy in case you have forgotten.

It is not a "while." people are not capable of saying two things at once. Jesus spoke those words before going to the garden. Those words are not in the context of the garden.

He shouldn't have to ask. They should know from the words of Jesus that He is their Lord and that means they need to ask.

 

[Muffled]

you see i think for my self which why i choose to be skeptical...
can't say the same for you though

You can't speak for me because you are not me. I don't think for myself. ia m capable of doing so but have deferred to Jesus to do my thinking for me.

This is highly unlikely. You are most likely skeptical due to some outside influence. You are correct in stating that you have a choice. However once you have chosen, you have lost the childhood innocence that accepts what is stated. Jesus said without that childhood innocence you can't enter the Kingdon of God. Skepticism puts you into a mindest of disbelief. So the problem is that no amount of proof is enough because the mindset is that it will not be enough.

 

[waitasec]

When I turn on my light, I don't have any empirical evidence of a flow of electricity. I simply accept the teaching that the light comes on because of electricity. Granted an elctrician could get empirical evidence but that doesn't change anything for me. I still have to accpt it on faith. So the matter is this, that empirical evidence is available but not necessarily to those who don't have superior knowledge as an electrician does.

your example fails because when you see a dog in the light some may call that very same animal a cat...

You are in error when you say "the kiss was necessary." It is not necessary for John to report on the kiss because the other authors did report on it. There is one Jesus and He was betrayed by Judas once in the garden.

john not only didn't report the kiss, he contradicted the kiss that happened in the synoptic gospels...in john jesus approached judas, in the synoptic gospels he was approached by judas instead

[

B][/B]
Feel free to point out a contradiction but you have not yet done so. You can say "context" until the cows come home but a word by itself doesn't mean much.

i refer you to the above.

Do you know how to read? The word "for" is not in the text. If the text had said "keep vigil" which is what is meant, then you would understand but you have this bizarre belief that "watch" automatically means "watch for." Not only that but the context defintely means that Jesus wanted His disciples to pray with Him.

what are they watching? jesus praying?

32 They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”
35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]
45 When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46 “Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.”

Jesus Arrested

47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

in john there is no account of sleepy disciples.... so i cant give you an example from john.

So. It is not a contradiction. Jesus is not having a problem with the events. He is quite confident of what will happen but that does not mean that contemplating going through them is pleasant. re the dentist analogy in case you have forgotten.

jesus as god was afraid? i remain unimpressed with your savior...

It is not a "while." people are not capable of saying two things at once. Jesus spoke those words before going to the garden. Those words are not in the context of the garden.

i would like for you to go through these 4 accounts and tell me what happened in what order all this happened after the last super and before his arrest...

He shouldn't have to ask. They should know from the words of Jesus that He is their Lord and that means they need to ask.

pay attention:

john 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

 

[sincerly]

your example fails because when you see a dog in the light some may call that very same animal a cat...

Waitasec, that which you wrote above describes your take on this whole thread. The Gospels are giving one consistent narrative of that portion of the last few hours of Jesus ministry and reason for HIS coming to earth, but you refuse to see that and instead call it "contradictory".

i would like for you to go through these 4 accounts and tell me what happened in what order all this happened after the last super and before his arrest...

Waitasec, you didn't believe the contexual answers to your same questions/accusations when I unraveled your accusations in the multiple previous post. Why do you "think" Ruffled would give anything different?
It is your posts which continue to be "Contrary to the Scriptural reports".

 

[Muffled]

your example fails because when you see a dog in the light some may call that very same animal a cat...

john not only didn't report the kiss, he contradicted the kiss that happened in the synoptic gospels...in john jesus approached judas, in the synoptic gospels he was approached by judas instead

[
i refer you to the above.



what are they watching? jesus praying?

32 They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”
35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]
45 When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46 “Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.”

Jesus Arrested

47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

in john there is no account of sleepy disciples.... so i cant give you an example from john.

jesus as god was afraid? i remain unimpressed with your savior...

i would like for you to go through these 4 accounts and tell me what happened in what order all this happened after the last super and before his arrest...

pay attention:

john 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

A person who calls a dog a cat is delusional.

I find no verse that supports this incorrect statement.

There is no kiss in John so there is no approach to Judas personally. John does not report that part of the story.

They aren't watching anything. They are falling asleep. Jesus wants them to pray; that is what He means.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation:

It is like this: 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,

Not that the devil is a lion to be looked for but that one must be aware of spiritual attack.

I doubt that you are capable of being impressed. I am impressed because sometimes I wonder if God really understands what it is like to go through pain since He did not have a body like ours before Jesus. In Jesus I can see that He does understand and cares about me.

I don't have time for that but I will say that Judas approached Jesus first and then Jesus made the declaration that He was the one they were seeking. Logically if it were the other way around Judas would not have had to make the signal by the kiss.

 

[Melki]

From my personal point of view,

Jesus asked their disciples to buy swords, and two was enough, to make him face the crucifixion, maybe without the swords he would'nt have faced crucifixion because there would be no incrimatination of the accusation that he was a rebel.

Let us go, he didn't said let us run away from them.
He was accepted as the messiah in Jerusalem, if he were to set up a kingdom in the world at that time, he would've gathered soldiers and went into guerilla fights. Instead his policy was to buy just two swords and then wait for the mob at gethsemane, his policy was no war. Maybe this kind of policy dissapointed the people of Israel, they decided to turn away from Him.

If he were to set up a kingdom in this world at the time his policy would've been fight the romans, fight whoever is going against the king, but that was not his policy. He told his disciples to go with him and keep track of the event of crucifixion.

After he rose from the death, he told the disciples that it was his decision to die on the cross.

If he told the diciples to run, matthew, mark, and luke, or whoever Christians that wrote the Gospel wouldn't put it there, cause it would be a case against the validity of their belief. But they put it there because that's what Jesus said, Christians love the truth, their priority is to love, not to lie to obtain power.

 

[sincerly]

From my personal point of view,

Hi Melki, welcome to the forums and this thread.
It is obvious from your "view" that you really have little knowledge of either the OT or NT sections of the BIBLE.
Thanks for responding just the same.

The life and teachings of Jesus(Bible) is worth totally understanding.

 

[Melki]

Hi Melki, welcome to the forums and this thread.
It is obvious from your "view" that you really have little knowledge of either the OT or NT sections of the BIBLE.
Thanks for responding just the same.

The life and teachings of Jesus(Bible) is worth totally understanding.

why do you think so? I know I haven't understood the bible much, but I need people to point out my lacking. Thank you for your kindness

 

[waitasec]

Hi Melki, welcome to the forums and this thread.
It is obvious from your "view" that you really have little knowledge of either the OT or NT sections of the BIBLE.
Thanks for responding just the same.

The life and teachings of Jesus(Bible) is worth totally understanding.

the NT is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy...

it's not a product of witness. the NT is hearsay and legend
you have little knowledge of the christian bible, as you are well versed in bs.

 

[sincerly]

the NT is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy...

it's not a product of witness. the NT is hearsay and legend
you have little knowledge of the christian bible, as you are well versed in bs.

Hi waitasec, thanks for your witness-----It continues as an attestation to your Previous posts.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Melki, welcome to the forums and this thread.
It is obvious from your "view" that you really have little knowledge of either the OT or NT sections of the BIBLE.
Thanks for responding just the same.

The life and teachings of Jesus(Bible) is worth totally understanding.

why do you think so? I know I haven't understood the bible much, but I need people to point out my lacking. Thank you for your kindness

Melki, "The life and teachings of Jesus(Bible) is worth totally understanding".
The reason being is because there is no other GOD, but the Creator GOD who made ALL THINGS and gives meaning to the questions of life.

Melki, Why do you think that another persons "understanding" is any better than one's own understanding which is "lacking"???
Paul addressed the issue thusly, (Acts 17:11), "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

The Bible/Scriptures are/is the source for TRUTH/verification.
Prov.14:12, Has this advice/truth, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death."
Therefore, apply the adminition to the scriptures which are said or appear to be contradictory. GOD doesn't give conficting messages----men do.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Proverbs is Not contradictory or conflicting but rather pithy sayings that employ or use likenesses or comparisons. Comparisons are Not contradictions nor showing conflict.
Proverbs gives parallel thoughts or ideas. Thoughts or ideas that can be synonymous or contrasting.

Examples of 'synonymous parallelism' at: Proverbs 11 v 25; 16 v 18; 18 v 15.

Examples of 'contrasting parallelism' at: Proverbs 10 v 7,30; 12 v 25; 15 v 8.

 

[sincerly]

Proverbs is Not contradictory or conflicting but rather pithy sayings that employ or use likenesses or comparisons. Comparisons are Not contradictions nor showing conflict.
Proverbs gives parallel thoughts or ideas. Thoughts or ideas that can be synonymous or contrasting.

Examples of 'synonymous parallelism' at: Proverbs 11 v 25; 16 v 18; 18 v 15.

Examples of 'contrasting parallelism' at: Proverbs 10 v 7,30; 12 v 25; 15 v 8.

Hi URAVIP2ME, Whether contrasting or same---the thoughts expressed in proverbs are truth principles concerning the whole range of Righteous living within the instructions given by the Creator GOD.
GOD doesn't give conflicting or confusing messages---People do---either by not understanding or purposefully.

 

[Melki]

Hi Melki, welcome to the forums and this thread.
It is obvious from your "view" that you really have little knowledge of either the OT or NT sections of the BIBLE.
Thanks for responding just the same.

The life and teachings of Jesus(Bible) is worth totally understanding.

DO you believe Jesus is the lamb of God who died for the redemption of humanity from sin?

 

[waitasec]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Melki, welcome to the forums and this thread.
It is obvious from your "view" that you really have little knowledge of either the OT or NT sections of the BIBLE.
Thanks for responding just the same.

The life and teachings of Jesus(Bible) is worth totally understanding.



Melki, "The life and teachings of Jesus(Bible) is worth totally understanding".
The reason being is because there is no other GOD, but the Creator GOD who made ALL THINGS and gives meaning to the questions of life.

Melki, Why do you think that another persons "understanding" is any better than one's own understanding which is "lacking"???
Paul addressed the issue thusly, (Acts 17:11), "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

The Bible/Scriptures are/is the source for TRUTH/verification.
Prov.14:12, Has this advice/truth, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death."
Therefore, apply the adminition to the scriptures which are said or appear to be contradictory. GOD doesn't give conficting messages----men do.

cool aid anyone?

 

[sincerly]

DO you believe Jesus is the lamb of God who died for the redemption of humanity from sin?

Hi Melki, As these verses attest---YES.

Rev.13:8, " And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

1Pet.1:18-20, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,..."

1John 2:1-2, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. " (See, also, 1John 4:10; and John 3:16)

 

[sincerly]

cool aid anyone?

Not your type/formulation of "cool aid". We have seen the results of that offered by Jim Jones.

 

[waitasec]

Not your type/formulation of "cool aid". We have seen the results of that offered by Jim Jones.

as we have seen how this doctrine has influenced people to do questionable things...

 

[sincerly]

as we have seen how this doctrine has influenced people to do questionable things...

The doctrine/"teachings" of skepticism/doubt does lead to very questionable beliefs.

 

[Melki]

Hi Melki, As these verses attest---YES.

Rev.13:8, " And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

1Pet.1:18-20, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,..."

1John 2:1-2, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. " (See, also, 1John 4:10; and John 3:16)

Thank you for clearing that up. I do too or at least my stance is so. I just want to know you're not the kind of guy who spitting up bible verses just to show off that he has read the bible and eventually propose the idea of atheism or other religion.