I think this answers all the questions - Who really is a Jew?

[Sleeppy]

Unique to them? What kind of standard is that? Was that standard suggested to you by a domestic animal before or after it was run over by a truck?

Do you know of any large group of millions of people who have made an entirely "unique to them" contribution to the world -- as a group. Sure, individuals make unique contributions -- look at Einstein -- but large groups, as a rule, don't.

So maybe the way a domestic animal in full possession of its senses would approach this is to ask "What have Jews contributed to the world", rather than "What have they uniquely contributed to the world?"

But don't take my word for it. Think it through for yourself.

You found my point.

 

[CMike]

What exactly does this look like? And how will you cause it to happen?

By example. That is what a light to the nations means. It means to show an example.

Below is a link that shows also some jewish contributions to the world.

Jewish Nobel Prize Laureates | Jewish Virtual Library

Jewish Contributions to Society

 

[Tumah]

In writing. But in practice? What have the Jewish people contributed to the World, that is completely unique to them?

I would say, historically speaking: A mirror.
We look like you.
We talk like you.
We are like you.
But we are not you. And however you have treated us has always been a reflection of you.

 

[Sleeppy]

By example. That is what a light to the nations means. It means to show an example.

Below is a link that shows also some jewish contributions to the world.

Jewish Nobel Prize Laureates | Jewish Virtual Library

Jewish Contributions to Society

Then you will understand; every nation is a result of God's light. Jews are not the only "light" source, nor are they without ignorance and deception.

We can all claim to be superior to each other, until we've become extinct. Undoubtedly, this is also a contribution pushed forward by Jews, as well as Christians, Muslims, and almost any other affiliation- as history shows, we're all willing to kill, and die, for God's light. God's superiority is not in words, but in action and example.

 

[Sunstone]

We can start out by worshipping one G-D, and THE G-D.

Monotheism is a problematic contribution. Probably best to go with the Jewish social conscience. Not entirely without problems, but less problematic than monotheism, I think.

 

[Sleeppy]

I would say, historically speaking: A mirror.
We look like you.
We talk like you.
We are like you.
But we are not you. And however you have treated us has always been a reflection of you.

The Most High humbles Himself in each of us- in all things.

 

[Tumah]

The Most High humbles Himself in each of us- in all things.

I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure the relevancy.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I agree with you. When I said that in the Judaism DIR, I was nearly drummed out. But I believe it is true.

Yeah. Apparently it is a fierce need in the hearts of some Jews to exclude anyone from the club whom they consider not to have the proper credentials.

Tribalistic thinking at its worst, if anyone asks me.

 

[Sleeppy]

I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure the relevancy.

That was my first thought.

If God maintains justice, everything is mirrored. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Reaping what is sown, etc.

 

[Tumah]

That was my first thought.

If God maintains justice, everything is mirrored. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Reaping what is sown, etc.

I understand the idea that you are presenting, Within the context of this discussion though, I am having trouble seeing the connection.

 

[Avi1001]

Yeah. Apparently it is a fierce need in the hearts of some Jews to exclude anyone from the club whom they consider not to have the proper credentials.

Tribalistic thinking at its worst, if anyone asks me.

Yes, some of these people are threatened by the idea that their religion might have to change :sorry1:

Of course, it is not only true of Judaism, fundamentalists of all religions share these fears.

 

[Flankerl]

Yeah. Apparently it is a fierce need in the hearts of some Jews to exclude anyone from the club whom they consider not to have the proper credentials.

Tribalistic thinking at its worst, if anyone asks me.

Oh no a group of people which uses certain criteria to set themselves apart from all other groups of people who use certain criteria to set themselves apart from all other groups of people who use certain.....

Yes, some of these people are threatened by the idea that their religion might have to change :sorry1:

Of course, it is not only true of Judaism, fundamentalists of all religions share these fears.

Well you are "just" in favour of abolishing a major "pillar" of Judaism.

You might as well start to carve yourselve some idols and worship them.


We are a tribe.

Get
over
it.

 

[Avi1001]

Well you are "just" in favour of abolishing a major "pillar" of Judaism.

You might as well start to carve yourselve some idols and worship them.

We are a tribe.

Get over it.

Sometimes major pillars shift.

I am part of a Covenantal Community.

Where do I mention idols ? You are the one idolizing tradition.

And why do you use a condescending tone ? Do I speak to you that way ?

 

[Flankerl]

Sometimes major pillars shift.


I am part of a Covenantal Community.

Where do I mention idols ? You are the one idolizing tradition.

And why do you use a condescending tone ? Do I speak to you that way ?

You didnt mention idols, i did. Its called an example to make a point.

Who a jew is(jewish mother or through a giyur) is a major pillar.
Another major pillar is not to carve an idol and worship it as Hashem.

You see the connection?


And a shift would be a reform like to see people as jews whose ancestors were once jews but were forcibly converted and not to see anyone who ate some Falafel and somehow has the bright idea to be jewish from that second on till he/she eats some rice and decides to be japanese from that second on.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Yes, some of these people are threatened by the idea that their religion might have to change :sorry1:

Of course, it is not only true of Judaism, fundamentalists of all religions share these fears.

Yeah, but I'm not focusing so much on resistance to change as on the tribal aspect of it -- the happy exclusion of anyone whom the membership committee wishes to blackball.

If a person wants to become a fundamentalist Christian, he'll be welcomed into the group, gladly. But if a person wants to call himself a Jew -- and hasn't the proper paperwork according to the membership committee -- then he is happily excluded.

I think of it much as I think of the Crips and the Bloods. If you are from the wrong neighborhood or if you are the wrong color or if whatever... you are not good enough to call yourself by the same name as I call myself.

Same setup so far as I am concerned. It's all about holding on to the Us vs. Them mentality.

As I said earlier, I don't care a bit if someone wants to include himself in the 'Southerner' category, even if he lives in Michigan. It's not the least bit important to me.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Oh no a group of people which uses certain criteria to set themselves apart from all other groups of people who use certain criteria to set themselves apart from all other groups of people who use certain.....

Yeah. I met this guy once who tortured small animals. When I tried to shame him for it, he argued that everyone tortures small animals, so why was I picking on him.

It wasn't an argument which made much sense to me.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

We are a tribe.

Get
over
it.

I'll continue to oppose tribalism wherever I encounter it. My God abhors it.

 

[Flankerl]

If a person wants to become a fundamentalist Christian, he'll be welcomed into the group, gladly. But if a person wants to call himself a Jew -- and hasn't the proper paperwork according to the membership committee -- then he is happily excluded.

I think of it much as I think of the Crips and the Bloods. If you are from the wrong neighborhood or if you are the wrong color or if whatever... you are not good enough to call yourself by the same name as I call myself.

I love gentiles who dont have the slightest idea about Judaism yet talk like they do.

Is the usual "you think that you are better than everyone else" next on your list?

Yeah. I met this guy once who tortured small animals. When I tried to shame him for it, he argued that everyone tortures small animals, so why was I picking on him.

It wasn't an argument which made much sense to me.

I also love examples that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

I'll continue to oppose tribalism wherever I encounter it. My God abhors it.

Good for you. But guess what, that doesnt matter to us.

Our way of self identification has been opposed for the last 1900 years but we are still here. You arent going to change that.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I love gentiles who dont have the slightest idea about Judaism yet talk like they do.

Yeah, I love Jews who know nothing about the fundamentals of Judaism. It reminds me of gentiles who haven't even read the bylaws of gentilism.

Is the usual "you think that you are better than everyone else" next on your list?

Sorry. I understand that you prefer any criticism of Judaism to come from ignorant bigots, but I can't help you there.

I also love examples that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Oh, come on out and play with me. Nothing to gain by hiding in the bushes.

Good for you. But guess what, that doesnt matter to us.

Nonsense. If it didn't matter to you, you wouldn't attack me when I criticize tribalism.

Our way of self identification has been opposed for the last 1900 years but we are still here. You arent going to change that.

Sure I will. The Jews, the Crips, the Pashtuns... their boundaries will fade away a little sooner because of the voices which are raised against tribalism.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Good for you. But guess what, that doesnt matter to us.

By the way, what is this 'us' business? Don't you recognize a Jewish brother?