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I want to believe in God again.

ThirtyThree

Well-Known Member
So then it just so happens in nearly every single case that the deity who the person's parents worship chooses that person's child?

Like why doesn't Yahweh choose more people from India?
I do not believe everyone selects the path which leads to what should be their destiny. While the deity which chooses a person might be the same deity their family raised them to believe in, this is not always the case. People often go off the path they are intended for, which leads to what I consider a hollow life devoid of miracles, and obvious influence of deity. Some people never hear their deity's call, and some are just never called.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
I do not believe everyone selects the path which leads to what should be their destiny

But if a deity selects someone how could they go down any other path? A deity is a very powerful being, it one selected me wouldn't I know it for sure, and be compelled to follow? You think some people hear a deity calling them and just say "nah, not interested?"

While the deity which chooses a person might be the same deity their family raised them to believe in, this is not always the case.

It's extremely rare. Something like 80-90% of people stay in the religion in which they were raised, and most of the 10%-20% who don't simply leave religion all together rather than being "called" by some different God. Those who change religions mostly change within their general religion...so like a Baptist changes to a Catholic or a Catholic changes to Protestant or something. Which means it's the same deity. It's rare for someone that was raised Christian to be "called" by Vishnu for example.

People often go off the path they are intended for, which leads to what I consider a hollow life devoid of miracles,

Nice of you to consider my life "hollow." That's not demeaning at all!

Some people never hear their deity's call,

LOL. God needs to speak up I guess. You'd think if the Most Powerful Being Ever called you, you'd definitely hear it!

and some are just never called

So your God just leaves some people to rot, alone in hollow lives? Why? Why does God call some people into a wonderful life full of miracles, and leave others with no chance? You really believe God discriminates at random like that? Odd.
 

ThirtyThree

Well-Known Member
But if a deity selects someone how could they go down any other path? A deity is a very powerful being, it one selected me wouldn't I know it for sure, and be compelled to follow? You think some people hear a deity calling them and just say "nah, not interested?"

I currently believe the sons of man get a choice in the matter, which is, at least loosely respected by supernals.

It's extremely rare. Something like 80-90% of people stay in the religion in which they were raised, and most of the 10%-20% who don't simply leave religion all together rather than being "called" by some different God. Those who change religions mostly change within their general religion...so like a Baptist changes to a Catholic or a Catholic changes to Protestant or something. Which means it's the same deity. It's rare for someone that was raised Christian to be "called" by Vishnu for example.

Indeed.

Nice of you to consider my life "hollow." That's not demeaning at all!

LOL. God needs to speak up I guess. You'd think if the Most Powerful Being Ever called you, you'd definitely hear it!

I was referring to deities which are not omnimax, honestly. At least, deities I do not believe are omnimax.

So your God just leaves some people to rot, alone in hollow lives? Why? Why does God call some people into a wonderful life full of miracles, and leave others with no chance? You really believe God discriminates at random like that? Odd.

My deity is Lucifer. Consider that when you ask such questions. As for YHWH, I do not know and I do not care what he does regarding his chosen, unless it interferes with me, mine or my deity.
 

ThirtyThree

Well-Known Member
Yahweh, Lucifer, Aquaman, it's all the same to me. Why does Lucifer only call certain people, and how does he choose which ones to call?

I believe He chooses us based on our core nature, events in our ancestry and possibly genetics. At least, that has been my experience. For example, in my family, many have walked away from His call. This is why I believe choice has some importance regarding accepting or rejecting a deity's call.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I keep flip-flopping between religions and I'm tired of it. I should just learn my lesson - polytheism doesn't really click with me and it's a lonely experience for me. It doesn't bring me peace of mind and I don't really feel the gods, not in the same way I've experienced the Christian God in the past. That's just my experience.

But I am very angry and bitter at Christians, specifically Catholics, for how they have treated me and people like me. I do not feel like I was really accepted as a Catholic. I cannot stand the judgmentalism and hypocrisy. But if I commit to Christianity again, it would have to be Catholicism because I simply can't see myself being a Protestant. Orthodoxy is an option, but that's too culturally foreign to me. I miss going to Mass, I miss the feeling of peace, warmth and love I felt praying and meditating, I miss the sense of wonder. I also would not become some super-conservative type. That's just not me. I know how to reconcile being queer, trans and sex-positive with Christianity, within myself.

I don't know. A lot of the time I feel like my relationship with God and the Church is so broken that it can't be fixed and I'm just fooling myself.

I don't know where I'm going with this post, I'm just tired.

What did you get in any of the religions that you cannot get without them, except having to accept their dogma and worship their god?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It's too early for structure, so I'm going with bullet points.
1.) Not gonna lie, there are some things the Catholics have that I really wish I had. I'd love the solemn hymes, religious items in every store, and those beautiful cathedrals you mentioned. Don't blame ya there.

2.) I share Madhuri's confusion about committing before you're sure. I never really understood how someone could adopt a label, try to join a community, and talk as if they were a credible follower of a religion they aren't 100% committed to. It always felt better to me to just say I wasn't sure, or give myself a broad label like "Pagan" so that I could belong somewhere but not loose credibility or sound confused when I kept working out what exactly I believed.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I had to think about what you said.

I don't meet many people who say they are 100 percent sure they of who they are in their given faith/s. It's more I'm 100 percent committed to a given faith/s. So, for example, I can speak about Catholicism and the love for it and my being part of the Church as if I am still in it. It's a part of my being and soul. I can't take that away.

I can speak about it from experience even though I'm not at all committed to it anymore. It's more of a personal thing. It's like going out with someone and you love him or for me, um, her to death. You dated for years, and then for a good reason, you two had to break it off.

Now, just because you flip from one person to date to the next doesn't negate that you still have love for the first or second person you were with. It also doesn't negate that you still have feelings for this person and to make it more closer to religion, if you were married, then it's even harder to break that marriage even if legally. It's a personal experience not flipping belief and not a dogma.

I know I was confused when @Saint Frankenstein changed faiths from the what two or three years I've been here and I know in my personal experience that we have a plethora of beliefs built into our own bodies that to me, it doesn't seem like people chosen one faith, they just chose a faith or morals that they agree with more than others.

I think that's the same with Saint (if I am not mistaken?). There may be a pull to this to that or whatever, but spirituality isn't a social club. It isn't chaos, and it isn't eclectic. It's a solid foundation to which one's other beliefs and practices bounce on. So, for example, my foundation is Buddhism. However, my practices are not only that of The Buddha, I also revere my ancestors through pagan (well, spiritualist, rather) practices.

I remember talking to a Bahai here that said h/she doesn't question h/her belief and never felt a need to. Almost as if this person had no doubts, no use of faith, no challenge thereof, they just live. I find that weird from any person growing on their spiritual walk.

So, anyway, it's confusing, yes; and, that's how it should be. I don't know many people who shop around for faiths, but I know eclectics have a different view on how they choose than someone who literally has a crisis in faith. The former may know what or who they want to worship or revere (whatever) but the latter, it's more of a internal thing. It's something that needs to be worked out between that person and who/whatever they with. Spiritual depression.

I don't know how anyone can call this anything other than spiritual growth. It's normal and healthy.

Nam.
:leafwind:
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
What did you get in any of the religions that you cannot get without them, except having to accept their dogma and worship their god?
Well, I believe in God and I feel a closeness to Christian spirituality, for one. When I'm more grounded in it and not letting people cloud my views of it (which includes not only Christians who are acting wrongly, but non-Christians who bash me and who try to make me drop my beliefs) and not letting my depression and anger win, it gives me hope, strength, meaning and purpose in life. It helps me to fought against my inner darkness, which is important to me since I often feel like I'm just falling apart.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Catholicism can be a pretty good religion and their recent thoughts on promoting the well being of people go pretty far. At least in the Vatican 2 they get passed some stuff and even bring science into it insisting it not be ignored.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...faith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
Yes, when it comes to the LGBT issue, there's a wide diversity of opinion on it. I expect that eventually the Vatican will eventually liberalize its stance on it, as it has on many other issues over the centuries. The laity in the West tends to be more supportive of LGBT rights than the general population, according to polls, and there are liberal clergy members who are accepting and even religious brothers and sisters who are affirming and minister to LGBT people. So I suppose it's really a matter of looking for a more liberal congregation. In the end, I need to stop caring so much about how other people view me and focus on my relationship with God, while forgiving those who mistreat me out of ignorance. He seems not to want to let me go. My patron Saint is Joan of Arc, after all.
 

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I had to think about what you said.

I don't meet many people who say they are 100 percent sure they of who they are in their given faith/s. It's more I'm 100 percent committed to a given faith/s. So, for example, I can speak about Catholicism and the love for it and my being part of the Church as if I am still in it. It's a part of my being and soul. I can't take that away.

I can speak about it from experience even though I'm not at all committed to it anymore. It's more of a personal thing. It's like going out with someone and you love him or for me, um, her to death. You dated for years, and then for a good reason, you two had to break it off.

Now, just because you flip from one person to date to the next doesn't negate that you still have love for the first or second person you were with. It also doesn't negate that you still have feelings for this person and to make it more closer to religion, if you were married, then it's even harder to break that marriage even if legally. It's a personal experience not flipping belief and not a dogma.

I know I was confused when @Saint Frankenstein changed faiths from the what two or three years I've been here and I know in my personal experience that we have a plethora of beliefs built into our own bodies that to me, it doesn't seem like people chosen one faith, they just chose a faith or morals that they agree with more than others.

I think that's the same with Saint (if I am not mistaken?). There may be a pull to this to that or whatever, but spirituality isn't a social club. It isn't chaos, and it isn't eclectic. It's a solid foundation to which one's other beliefs and practices bounce on. So, for example, my foundation is Buddhism. However, my practices are not only that of The Buddha, I also revere my ancestors through pagan (well, spiritualist, rather) practices.

I remember talking to a Bahai here that said h/she doesn't question h/her belief and never felt a need to. Almost as if this person had no doubts, no use of faith, no challenge thereof, they just live. I find that weird from any person growing on their spiritual walk.

So, anyway, it's confusing, yes; and, that's how it should be. I don't know many people who shop around for faiths, but I know eclectics have a different view on how they choose than someone who literally has a crisis in faith. The former may know what or who they want to worship or revere (whatever) but the latter, it's more of a internal thing. It's something that needs to be worked out between that person and who/whatever they with. Spiritual depression.

I don't know how anyone can call this anything other than spiritual growth. It's normal and healthy.

Nam.
:leafwind:
The idea was more confidence than certainty. I completely get what you're saying, and sometimes we do have multiple or changing influences, but my quarrel was more with jumping labels. There's quite a difference between saying "I have history in this and this, and I'm looking at that, but I'm still working it out" and saying "I'm this. Now I'm this. Never mind, I'll be that instead. But I'm serious about it this time!"
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Yes, when it comes to the LGBT issue, there's a wide diversity of opinion on it. I expect that eventually the Vatican will eventually liberalize its stance on it, as it has on many other issues over the centuries. The laity in the West tends to be more supportive of LGBT rights than the general population, according to polls, and there are liberal clergy members who are accepting and even religious brothers and sisters who are affirming and minister to LGBT people. So I suppose it's really a matter of looking for a more liberal congregation. In the end, I need to stop caring so much about how other people view me and focus on my relationship with God, while forgiving those who mistreat me out of ignorance. He seems not to want to let me go. My patron Saint is Joan of Arc, after all.
I had a very negative view of Catholicism for a long time. Finding out about Saint Francis and then seeing Pope Francis changing the tone of the Church 180 degrees changed my attitude. Add to this that everything you've written in this thread indicates you still feel at home as a Catholic, it strikes me that you have a better chance of finding a more accepting congregation than ever before and I hope you do.

I also know that it's not easy. Only God loves and accepts us with perfect love. And God can strengthen us in our work to forgive those who mistreat us. But practicing forgiveness is a truly worthwhile struggle.

May God grant you your heart's desire.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I keep flip-flopping between religions and I'm tired of it. I should just learn my lesson - polytheism doesn't really click with me and it's a lonely experience for me. It doesn't bring me peace of mind and I don't really feel the gods, not in the same way I've experienced the Christian God in the past. That's just my experience.

But I am very angry and bitter at Christians, specifically Catholics, for how they have treated me and people like me. I do not feel like I was really accepted as a Catholic. I cannot stand the judgmentalism and hypocrisy. But if I commit to Christianity again, it would have to be Catholicism because I simply can't see myself being a Protestant. Orthodoxy is an option, but that's too culturally foreign to me. I miss going to Mass, I miss the feeling of peace, warmth and love I felt praying and meditating, I miss the sense of wonder. I also would not become some super-conservative type. That's just not me. I know how to reconcile being queer, trans and sex-positive with Christianity, within myself.

I don't know. A lot of the time I feel like my relationship with God and the Church is so broken that it can't be fixed and I'm just fooling myself.

I don't know where I'm going with this post, I'm just tired.
If you want the feel of the Mass without the anti-LGBT stuff, there's always high Anglican. If it matters to you, a case could be made that they have Apostolic Succession, too - the Vatican's argument for why they don't always seemed kinda shaky to me.

There are the UUs, too - they don't have the same level of ritual, but the congregations I've checked out were all supportive, welcoming communities.
 

Unfathomable Tao

Student of the Way
Have you ever given thought to the idea that god and gods, polytheism and monotheism, are ways in which humans try to grasp the same great mystery that is the universe, and deep emotion, and life? That perhaps, the mystery transcends all these concepts? A Taoist might say the more we try to fix the great mystery into binding ideas we can hold, the more we lose it. When if we follow life and living like an art we already know well from some quiet place, and only hold terms and conceptions loosely, we will have a peace and stability that comes with letting the streams of life carry us. I'm just wondering if you've ever considered that maybe no one answer is right, or they're all in degrees right, because the mystery is like feelings. Words are useful, but sometimes they can't do great concepts and ideas perfect justice, when they all too often fail to fully convey even intense emotions.
 
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