If a creator exists, why worship it?

[Tumah]

We have the power to choose but if someone is deciding what we get to choose from and the circumstances surrounding the choice, we could easily be led wherever god wants us to go. When you also take into account that this being is the one who gave us our intellect and instincts in the first place it will know what we will choose and why. So in that situation, would we truly have free will or just an illusion of it?

I would call that free will because regardless of whether there is an Intelligence behind our circumstances or not, those events are going to be what we are given to choose between. What I would add, is that maybe free will is not as far reaching as one may otherwise think.

 

[Etritonakin]

We have the power to choose but if someone is deciding what we get to choose from and the circumstances surrounding the choice, we could easily be led wherever god wants us to go. When you also take into account that this being is the one who gave us our intellect and instincts in the first place it will know what we will choose and why. So in that situation, would we truly have free will or just an illusion of it?

Thankfully, God's choices supersede ours. Fortunately, he will lead us where he wants us to go -which is also where we want to go -but may not know it yet.

A very bad idea would be to let the free will of all run amok for all eternity as it has, for the most part, on earth.
Government is necessary for order and happiness.
Everyone submits to the will of many others every day -and they see its necessity.
Such makes awesome feats possible, and -rather than oppressing -ensures the freedom of individuals (ideally -when it is done right).

God gave us intellect and some instincts, but he also gave us creativity.
One of the reasons for what we call "free will" is so that God does NOT know everything that we will do -so that we CAN surprise him in positive ways.

He is able to know what can be known -which is most things, but the fact that we are able to disobey him shows that he cannot make us do what he wants and also give us true independent creativity.
It requires that we choose to do what he wants us to do, because we know it to be correct.

Because our "free will" has the potential to cause untold misery and destruction, God guides the course of history so that we experience LESS misery and destruction than would otherwise be -but enough to eventually see the error of our ways.

God did not say he gave us "free will", but gave us a choice between life and death.
Obedience to him is the right choice because it sustains life in a desirable state.
Disobedience to him brings misery and death -and even states where death would be the more desirable option.

We have the free will to make good and bad decisions, but not to escape the reality of our decisions.

All must be considered for the sake of all, so we must willingly submit our wills to that which is good for all in order to assure the freedom and well-being of all.

Such is called "the law of love".

 

[sojourner]

Why do you assume that a creator is and will always be unknowable?

Theology
noun, plural theologies.
1. The field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. A particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

Because if the creator is God, God is too big for us to see objectively. We are "within God." therefore, our POV will always be subjective, since we cannot hold God out in front of ourselves enough to be objective.

 

[sojourner]

If a god wants my attention they will actually have to contact me.

Perhaps God has tried and you're just not listening?

 

[JoStories]

Exactly, why worship it, we are born from our parents but we don't worship them, well I don't.

I don't worship my parents but I certainly do respect and honor them. Lately, too many don't. They allow their parents to rot in nursing homes. It's despicable in the extreme. White man's propensity to do such a thing is beyond my understanding. After all, they raised us, where is the loyalty and honor to help the, in the August time of their lives?

 

[JoStories]

What are the benefits that the worshiper gets specifically?

Solace. Hope. Intrinsic peace. A sense of community for those involved in a church/synagogue, etc. etc. I personally don't worship my view of God but I understand the idea of it. As we have discussed before, for those ill or dying, it can be a true balm to the soul.

 

[JoStories]

It's certainly a lot more apologetic than theological. It doesn't explain worship or its function, or what the worship process is supposed to do for us.

As I said to leibowde, it does have benefits for those who need this kind of thing. You don't need this, nor I for that matter, but many do.

 

[JoStories]

all of those relate to the act of worship.

You still didn't answer him. I did. I don't worship, as you know,the word but I do use introspection in my faith to help me understand my place and my path. For my mom, it's about community, solace, peace, self worth, and much more. What does it do for you? That might lead you to an answer.

 

[JoStories]

You just gave an example of one form of misplaced worship. Greed for wealth and power no matter what harm is caused to others. Refusing proven medical treatments or medical treatment altogether is another form of harmful worship. Inflicting self harm as a form of worship is... well, also harmful. Giving all your money, time and devotion to shady religious leaders is another form of harmful worship. Worship that includes or is based around a mindset that you are powerless and/or inherently flawed, sinful, guilty is psychologically harmful. Worship that encourages a belief/world view that there is a better life/afterlife that ultimately devalues the lives we are living right now.

I don't agree with that. You're focusing on the negative aspects and in that respect, you're right. But there are benefits for those who do worship, as I have noted. Using a chalice is one thing I find truly ignorant or self flagellation or whatever. But for some, using worship provides a sense of community, peace, etc., as I have said.

 

[JoStories]

Worship, no. Although I think it would make sense for the species to express a great amount of appreciation.

I don't think it would be that odd. People get frustrated at machines for not doing what they want all the time.


Because unlike int he scenario above, worshiping G-d is beneficial for the person, not G-d.

I would have said just the opposite. Every single thing that occurs in your life is directly calculated and caused by G-d.

That seems to me to remove personal culpability, if one states that 'God made me do it' where is accountability for actions? Every criminal on earth would say that and feel vindicated. It's, IMO, ridiculous on its face. My view is that we make the choices, whether good or bad, and have to,answer for them. Our purpose, again IMO, is to live a good and moral life. One that honors us, our society and God, using that word as a way of communicating what I see as God.

 

[JoStories]

You are assuming, that He has no interest in us. You are rejecting every form of contact, that He has done, and then you say, He doesn't care. He does care about contacting us, but He doesn't really care about proving it to atheists.

You will suffer greatly sooner or later, if you cling to this perishable world of dust. The only way not to cling to it, is to hold fast unto God. Maybe your life is awesome right now, wait until you are sick, or lose all your money. Without belief in God you will have a feeling, that you have lost all there is. With belief in God you will have a feeling, that you have lost nothing. That is simple logic. Life is suffering, and the only way not to suffer, is escaping life/suffering through Not-Life/God.

IMO, that seems to intimate someone who has not truly suffered at all. Have you been homeless and eaten out of trash bins? I have. Have any of your children been raped? Mine was. Have you ever been repeatedly beaten by someone who allegedly 'loved' you? I have. Have you yourself been raped? I have. Or lost your soul mate? I have. Do you suffer with pain that is crippling every single day or are you blind? I do and am. Until you have faced trials in life that are so untenable that they shake the soul, don't think you understand suffering. I had no faith in God then, as I could not even fathom a God that would inflict this level of pain on someone. Later, I understood my trials but then..? No way did I think a benevolent God would be this cruel.

 

[sojourner]

I don't agree with that. You're focusing on the negative aspects and in that respect, you're right. But there are benefits for those who do worship, as I have noted. Using a chalice is one thing I find truly ignorant or self flagellation or whatever. But for some, using worship provides a sense of community, peace, etc., as I have said.

Wait... how is using a chalice in worship "ignorant," again?

 

[JoStories]

Wait... how is using a chalice in worship "ignorant," again?

How is using metal hooked leather strops on ones leg in deference to the 'suffering' of a man not ignorant? Let's leave the overt infection potential out of this. What of the damage to the skin and muscles?

 

[sojourner]

How is using metal hooked leather strops on ones leg in deference to the 'suffering' of a man not ignorant? Let's leave the overt infection potential out of this. What of the damage to the skin and muscles?

The chalice is the wine cup used in Holy Eucharist.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't worship my parents but I certainly do respect and honor them. Lately, too many don't. They allow their parents to rot in nursing homes. It's despicable in the extreme. White man's propensity to do such a thing is beyond my understanding. After all, they raised us, where is the loyalty and honor to help the, in the August time of their lives?

Could you explain how you understand the distinction between worshiping something and respecting or honoring them? I ask, because to me they are not different; to worship something means one is respecting and honoring it (worth-ship), often times by celebrating it and expressing gratitude.

 

[Tumah]

That seems to me to remove personal culpability, if one states that 'God made me do it' where is accountability for actions? Every criminal on earth would say that and feel vindicated. It's, IMO, ridiculous on its face. My view is that we make the choices, whether good or bad, and have to,answer for them. Our purpose, again IMO, is to live a good and moral life. One that honors us, our society and God, using that word as a way of communicating what I see as God.

It definitely removes a person from culpability to some extent: it would not have happened if G-d had not wanted it to happen. But the choice was in choosing to be the medium for an evil act. The onus is on the person to only be a medium for good and let G-d find someone/thing else to take care of the evil things.

 

[JoStories]

It definitely removes a person from culpability to some extent: it would not have happened if G-d had not wanted it to happen. But the choice was in choosing to be the medium for an evil act. The onus is on the person to only be a medium for good and let G-d find someone/thing else to take care of the evil things.

I'm glad you agree but can you explain what you mean by medium? And just so you know, I don't believe in evil. For me, it is a contirved term to also reduce culpability. One can choose to do,what is right or wrong. One hopes that if would be right. These are the experiences we choose for our lives, IMO.

 

[JoStories]

Could you explain how you understand the distinction between worshiping something and respecting or honoring them? I ask, because to me they are not different; to worship something means one is respecting and honoring it (worth-ship), often times by celebrating it and expressing gratitude.

How I define worship is what my mother,does for her faith. She reads her Bible, prays, goes to church and church activities, is a part of the choir, etc. honor and respect, for me, means caring for my mom (she has Alzheimer's), listening to her old stories time and again, empathsizng when she is frustrated with word retrieval. Etc. it means that I will never allow her to be put in a nursing home, respecting her advice, even now and so on. I hope this helps!

 

[JoStories]

The chalice is the wine cup used in Holy Eucharist.

So sorry, mthis dang iPad tries to think for me at times. I meant, of course, cilice.

 

[sojourner]

So sorry, mthis dang iPad tries to think for me at times. I meant, of course, cilice.

Ah. Ok. Yeah, hate the autocorrect function!