If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

[CG Didymus]

Yes. In fact, regardless of whether I'm a member or not, you can say that my view does not count as a Baha'i view. Please, don't anyone think that I'm a Baha'i. I don't want to be associated in any way at all with online Baha'i preaching. (edited to add the following) In fact, maybe it's a mistake for me to post in these discussions at all. It's tempting because of my personal experience with it and some passionate views about it, but actually for my purposes those are reasons for staying out of it. I'm hoping now that I'll be able to stop. (end edit)

That's exactly what I'm saying. The popularity in the Baha'i Faith of a person who stoops so low sometimes in his writings could be considered as a mark against it.

I'm really glad you are here. And I get a lot out of your comments.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What you appear to be missing in my view is that the Bahai have
A) Had their chance to respond with anything of substance to the central issue raised in the OP
B) Given a woefully inadequate response

But to be fair, what adequate response could be given to Baha'u'llah's errors, the pointing out of those errors over a period of a year by an ordinary mortal, and the following revision other than a frank admission of the fallibility of Baha'u'llah?

The paper you referenced written by Christopher Buck appears to provide a comprehensive analysis of the issues you raise. It appears you have either not properly studied the paper or it has not addressed to your satisfaction, the concerns you raise. Either way you have concluded Baha'u'llah is very fallible.

I have to admit, its not an important issue for me personally. The manner in which Christopher Buck raises Najafi's criticism and responds along with extensive references from the research department is more than adequate for me. Its been an interesting read, so thanks for that.

 

[danieldemol]

The paper you referenced written by Christopher Buck appears to provide a comprehensive analysis of the issues you raise. It appears you have either not properly studied the paper or it has not addressed to your satisfaction, the concerns you raise. Either way you have concluded Baha'u'llah is very fallible.

I have to admit, its not an important issue for me personally. The manner in which Christopher Buck raises Najafi's criticism and responds along with extensive references from the research department is more than adequate for me. Its been an interesting read, so thanks for that.

Fair enough, overwhelming evidence that one's self appointed "infallible" messenger is really just a fallible human is not important to some people in my view.

 

[CG Didymus]

Fair enough, overwhelming evidence that one's self appointed "infallible" messenger is really just a fallible human is not important to some people in my view.

He's the most important person... if his claims are true. If people can prove his claims true, then let's see them. If people can find reasons to doubt his claims are true, then, whether they like to or not, it is the Baha'is that have to show why those claims are false.

That's what Christians had to do when they made their claims about the Bible and their claims about Jesus. Funny though, the Baha'is debunk the Christian claims about the Bible being literally true. And they debunk the Christian claim that Jesus is God and rose physically from the dead.

All the Baha'is can do is give us their best reasons for believing, and why they believe the claims of their detractors aren't true. Some of us are going to accept their reasons. Some of us aren't.

 

[Trailblazer]

He's the most important person... if his claims are true. If people can prove his claims true, then let's see them. If people can find reasons to doubt his claims are true, then, whether they like to or not, it is the Baha'is that have to show why those claims are false.

No, the Baha'is are under no obligation to show other people that Baha'u'llah's claims are true. We are only responsible for our own beliefs.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

As the above passages says, we are all capable of recognizing the Beauty of God, and that is why we are all individually accountable to God for what we believed on judgment day. We are not accountable to God for what other people chose to believe or disbelieve.

All the Baha'is can do is give as their best reasons for believing and why they believe the claims of their detractors aren't true. Some of us are going to accept their reasons. Some of us aren't.

The Baha'is have given their best reasons for believing and why they believe the claims of their detractors aren't true, but that is a moot point because our reasons for believing are not going to be the same as anyone else's.

Everyone had to find their own reasons for believing or disbelieving, they cannot count on the Baha'is to convince them.
Nowhere did Baha'u'llah ever say that it is a Baha'is responsibility to convince other people that the Baha'i Faith is true.

 

[danieldemol]

All the Baha'is can do is give as their best reasons for believing and why they believe the claims of their detractors aren't true. Some of us are going to accept their reasons. Some of us aren't.

So far the only reasons given are a 285 page report which quibbles over the number of errors Najafi alleges between two specific lithographs of Baha'u'llah's whilst confirming the wider point that Baha'u'llah made a number of errors over a period of a year and had them corrected by a mortal in my view.

Seems like all you have to do to convince Baha'i is throw in a couple of Baha'i quotes and a verbose report and they will believe anything Baha'u'llah says despite the contrary evidence to me.

 

[CG Didymus]

So far the only reasons given are a 285 page report which quibbles over the number of errors Najafi alleges between two specific lithographs of Baha'u'llah's whilst confirming the wider point that Baha'u'llah made a number of errors over a period of a year and had them corrected by a mortal in my view.

Seems like all you have to do to convince Baha'i is throw in a couple of Baha'i quotes and a verbose report and they will believe anything Baha'u'llah says despite the contrary evidence to me.

It's tough being a manifestation of God. Everyone expects everything they do, write or say has to be perfect.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's tough being a manifestation of God. Everyone expects everything they do, write or say has to be perfect.

Not everyone expects that. A manifestation of God has a human side too.

 

[Vinayaka]

I believe that Baha'is and other groups who claim to follow the return of Christ have their questions incomplete.

One not only needs a criteria of what a true claimant would look like, when multiple people make the case to fit those criteria, it is also helpful to have a set of criteria for what a false claimant would look like, so this thread is for how we can know that a claimant is *not* Christ.

In that regard I think it is helpful for as not only to know what a Christ is, but also what a Christ is not.

According to Baha'u'llah (one of the numerous "return of Christ" claimants), one of the features of Christ is that he is infallible. Though I dont know if this claim is justified in the Biblical texts, nonetheless it would be unwise to treat a demonstrably fallible person as if infallible.

So one of the things that might be a criterion of *not* being the Christ is making errors in one's own holy writings, having them pointed out by another fallible human, then having to re-edit the text multiple times.

But then Baha'u'llah appears to *not* be a return of Christ in my view because that is what he appears to have done;

'Bahā’u’llāh is probably the only Prophet ever who has revised and changed the errors in his own writings, and the only erring infallible. Unfortunately, some people fail to see why these errors must not be committed by a divine figure who carries God’s messages. Some people fail to realize that God’s words don’t need to be edited, proofread, and changed, especially if they have been penned by the “Unerring Pen.” To make matters worse, the UHJ explicitly mentions that many of the changes were suggested to Bahā’u’llāh by an ordinary person: 481 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 71. 482 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 78. 483 This can be deduced from his statement “then they would be like your words,” which was uttered by Bahā’u’llāh to state that there must be a difference between the words of God and the words of the people and this difference exists in the grammatical conventions. 217 It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other.484 These words show how helpless Bahā’u’llāh was in correcting his errors. Every time he fixed the errors some more were found and he was again forced to make changes in the book and give out a new revised version. He even needed a fallible person to point out these errors and give him suggestions. Thus, the book was not revised once but numerous times. If these changes were made to “to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause” then why not change it accordingly once and shut the mouth of the opponents once and for all. Are the words of God some sort of joke that must be changed every time someone objects to them? The words of God are perfect they need not be changed for style and grammar. These acts by Bahā’u’llāh are in direct contradiction with the claimed infallibility and divine knowledge attributed to him. What is the difference between this Baha’i prophet and all other ordinary men who make mistakes and correct them later on? What kind of an Omniscient God do Baha’is believe in that cannot foresee the troubling consequences of his revelations and changes them multiple times and gives out newer versions and editions?!'

Source:
Twelve Principles:
A Comprehensive Investigation on
the Baha’i Teachings
Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali
Translated by: Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri
page 216-217

Which can be downloaded here: https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

TL : DR? What criterion demonstrate a person is *not* the "return of Christ"?

For folks like me, it's ridiculously easy, as I'm convinced there never was, and never will be such a thing. Same with somebody claiming they measured themselves, and they're 20 feet tall. It's such a wild claim that there is no need to spend any time at all on it. (Yes here I am, it's early morning and coffee time.)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So far the only reasons given are a 285 page report which quibbles over the number of errors Najafi alleges between two specific lithographs of Baha'u'llah's whilst confirming the wider point that Baha'u'llah made a number of errors over a period of a year and had them corrected by a mortal in my view.

Seems like all you have to do to convince Baha'i is throw in a couple of Baha'i quotes and a verbose report and they will believe anything Baha'u'llah says despite the contrary evidence to me.

those who have recognized Baha'u'llah as Manifestation of God, see that everything He did, or how He did it, have a wisdom.
Consider reading the Book of Iqan. There are different ways God tests and separates.
Separation is the key To understand the Wisdom of many things, the Manifestations of God did, or said.

 

[CG Didymus]

For folks like me, it's ridiculously easy, as I'm convinced there never was, and never will be such a thing. Same with somebody claiming they measured themselves, and they're 20 feet tall. It's such a wild claim that there is no need to spend any time at all on it. (Yes here I am, it's early morning and coffee time.)

As you've said several times "It's a different paradigm." I'm sure some religions in India are focused on laws and morals codes meant for the general population, but that's a big part of most of the Abrahamic religions.

I don't know if it's true, but, as I've said many times, I have a strong suspicion that religious leaders of a people could easily have written stories about their Gods... Then wrote in stories about the laws and moral codes that their God wanted them to live. And then, had stories about how that God punished those that didn't obey. And how the God will punish them even more in the afterlife.

Then there's what I would call "spiritual" teachings... how does a person get more connected to that oneness with the spiritual reality around us. Those kinds of teachings are much easier for the followers of one teaching to say to another person following some different teaching or method... "My teaching is working for me, but I can see how your path is working for you."

Strong believers in any of the Abrahamic religions can't say that about a different religion. Their teachings have either replaced the teachings of the others, or they believe the others to be false.

Baha'is are mostly of the type that say they are replacing those other Abrahamic religions. But then they also go into how and why some of the teachings and practices of those other religions are wrong... that they brought in "traditions of men" and misconceptions of what their Scriptures mean.

None of these teachings of any of these "Christs", Promised Ones", or whatever sound perfect to me. They've all got some strange beliefs mixed. But the way they are being presented to the people is that their teachings are perfect and must be followed and obey completely... and they never are. To me, that's problem and a failure. Those kinds of religions, with a lot of rules, have never worked... even the leaders break them.

 

[Vinayaka]

As you've said several times "It's a different paradigm." I'm sure some religions in India are focused on laws and morals codes meant for the general population, but that's a big part of most of the Abrahamic religions.

I don't know if it's true, but, as I've said many times, I have a strong suspicion that religious leaders of a people could easily have written stories about their Gods... Then wrote in stories about the laws and moral codes that their God wanted them to live. And then, had stories about how that God punished those that didn't obey. And how the God will punish them even more in the afterlife.

Then there's what I would call "spiritual" teachings... how does a person get more connected to that oneness with the spiritual reality around us. Those kinds of teachings are much easier for the followers of one teaching to say to another person following some different teaching or method... "My teaching is working for me, but I can see how your path is working for you."

Strong believers in any of the Abrahamic religions can't say that about a different religion. Their teachings have either replaced the teachings of the others, or they believe the others to be false.

Baha'is are mostly of the type that say they are replacing those other Abrahamic religions. But then they also go into how and why some of the teachings and practices of those other religions are wrong... that they brought in "traditions of men" and misconceptions of what their Scriptures mean.

None of these teachings of any of these "Christs", Promised Ones", or whatever sound perfect to me. They've all got some strange beliefs mixed. But the way they are being presented to the people is that their teachings are perfect and must be followed and obey completely... and they never are. To me, that's problem and a failure. Those kinds of religions, with a lot of rules, have never worked... even the leaders break them.

Tools, not rules.

 

[RestlessSoul]

It's tough being a manifestation of God. Everyone expects everything they do, write or say has to be perfect.

Well I would say we are all manifestations of God, and none of us are anywhere near perfect.

 

[CG Didymus]

Consider reading the Book of Iqan.

Sorry, but right from the beginning he lost me... His story about Noah has nothing to do with the story in Genesis. And that came from the people that first wrote the story. It is one of their patriarchs. Why change the story? And where did the Baha'i story come from?

And again, when he gets into telling the story of Abraham, he changes that Bible story too... and makes Ishmael the son that Abraham took to be sacrificed.

Why is that necessary? Some don't believe it was an actual, historical event anyway. Why change a fictional story? Or do you believe it is true?

Anyway, here's Baha'u'llah's version of the story about Noah, the animals, the rains coming down and the flood... no wait... none of that is in there.

Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’”3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: “Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers.”4​

This now has to become the true story about Noah. The Bible story has to be considered to be wrong. But because Baha'i can't actually say that it is wrong. So, Baha'is will probably have some "symbolic" interpretation of the Bible version of the story... Like maybe, for forty days and forty nights doubts rained down on the people, and they all drowned in the "flood" of the ignorance of their own disbelief.

Sorry, it's just too much manipulating the Scriptures of other religions. Like one Baha'is says, "They are just stories." As in being made-up, fictional, mythological stories? If so, then why then do the stories have to be changed to fit the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith?

 

[CG Didymus]

Well I would say we are all manifestations of God, and none of us are anywhere near perfect.

Yeah, I was going by the Baha'i definition of a "manifestation" of God.

These Figures are not simply ordinary people with a greater knowledge than others. Rather they are Manifestations of God, Who have exerted an incomparable influence on the evolution of human society...​

​

With the coming of each Manifestation, new forces are released...​

​

This process—in which the Manifestations of God have successively provided the guidance necessary for humanity’s social and spiritual evolution—is known as “progressive revelation.” If God were to be likened to the unapproachable sun, the source of all light and life in our own solar system, then the Manifestations of God might be compared to mirrors that perfectly reflect the sun’s light in a form that human beings are capable of comprehending. “These sanctified Mirrors…are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty.”​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The 12 principles is written by certain Muslims, of the same mentality of those that murdered a Messenger of God, the Bab and Persecuted and exiled another Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah.

They were unable to refute the wisdom of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah then, even the most learned of them. So there next step was ro try to eliminate anyone that embraced that wisdom. That persecution continues by those same type of muslims to this very day.

Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah stand on their Trustworthiness and Trufulness and asked humanity to enquire into where they were born as to their Character.

People get their own choice as to what material is more reliable, those teaching Trustworthiness and truthfulness in the oneness of humanity, or those aimed at eliminating that cause from the face of the earth.

I will offer that the twelve Principles, written by certain Muslims, has been debated on many forums and the inaccuracies of the translations have been adequately addressed.

I personally see this OP only supports Baha'u'llah and the cause He brought us from God.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Fair enough, overwhelming evidence that one's self appointed "infallible" messenger is really just a fallible human is not important to some people in my view.

Choose one example from that paper, that you believe Baha'u'llah made mistake, and can discuss and see here.

 

[danieldemol]

those who have recognized Baha'u'llah as Manifestation of God, see that everything He did, or how He did it, have a wisdom.
Consider reading the Book of Iqan. There are different ways God tests and separates.
Separation is the key To understand the Wisdom of many things, the Manifestations of God did, or said.

Yeah we know you believe God plants false evidence (ie lies) to test and separate the gullible (ie sincere in Baha'i speak) from the critical thinkers (read ungodly in Baha'i speak) in my view.

 

[danieldemol]

The 12 principles is written by certain Muslims, those that murdered a Messenger of God, the Bab and Persecuted and exiled another Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah.

This is shameless slander of people who weren't even alive in the lifetime of Bab and Baha'u'llah as testified by the fact that they quote from people writing long after Baha'u'llah's death in my view, but what can we expect from *edit certain* Baha'i when their leader has been effectively refuted other than handwaiving together with an empty claim that they have been refuted and an egregious ad-hominem?

 

[danieldemol]

Choose one example from that paper, that you believe Baha'u'llah made mistake, and can discuss and see here.

Its not necessary in my view as the Baha'i world centre has admitted to the editing of the text, and editing is subconciously a frank admission that he didn't get the words correct the first time.