If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

[RamaRaksha]

That statement is as broad as you accuse other people of when talking of Hinduism.

The Bible is clear, we are all born in the image and potential of divinity, it is our core potential.

Genesis 1:27
James 3:9

Regards Tony

"Heaven only if you are with Jesus"
"Good works won't get you into Heaven - one must have belief and that too the "right" one, one must accept Christ or else!"
The push for converts - Billions spent and are being spent - conversion works only if you preach division and hate
The carrot and stick method - Heaven if you convert, Hell if you don't - all based on religion, belief
The afterworld for Billions of Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists will be like being Jews in Nazi Germany

 

[RamaRaksha]

I would, if he existed, but not any more divine than the average person. This addresses a major difference in paradigms though. Hindus see a spark of divinity at the core of everyone, whereas Abrahamics see us all as sinners, (except for manifestations, etc.) or some other non-divine way. Put another way, it's optimism versus pessimism.

You misunderstand these religions - BTW I would set Judaism apart from Christianity & Islam
The latter two are simple Master - Slave religions - ancient people living under Kings, Dictators used them as a template for God
Hence all the - Get down on our knees, beg, grovel, blindly obey, sing only his praises etc
Take their Terminology - "Commandments, Submit, beg, obey, judge, wrath, punish, mercy, forgive, Fear" - ALL Slave/Servant words totally absent in Hinduism/Buddhism
But that was life back then and these uneducated simple ancients envisioned an afterworld that was similar to their own
A King like God sitting on his Throne in the Heavens, Heaven is his Kingdom, only open to loyal believers and supporters
The rest to suffer in hell
In today's world that would be like living in Russia or North Korea - the few living the good life because they believed and supported the "Dear Loving Master" and the rest suffer
.
These religions and followers have sold their soul to the conversion industry
The way to push conversions is to divide and rule
Consider that if you are up for a job and the best candidate gets the job, then the corrupt official would not gain anything
The only way he gets money is by installing Corrupt managers who then decide who gets the job
These religions use the same methods
"Good works won't get you into Heaven, you have to have belief" but wait, not just any belief, but of course theirs
Only their God gets to decide whether you get the job(get into heaven) or not
And now you see why they are sinners - they are sinners and NEED God to get them to Heaven, see?
To people with a slave mentality, it makes total sense
.
But Hinduism says we are ALL Children of God - Mother Sita is referred to as well, Mother - same with all other Female Gods
We are not slaves, sinners - hence these ideas seem strange to us

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bible is clear, we are all born in the image and potential of divinity, it is our core potential.

I agree with what you said since I am a Baha'i, but with all due respect, everyone does not consider the Bible to be God's holy book.
In fact, only 31.6% of the world population are Christians, and Jews and Baha'is account for only a tiny percentage of the world population.
That means that about 68% of the world population does not adhere to the Bible.

As a Hindu, I would not expect @Vinayaka to adhere to the Bible.

 

[Vinayaka]

As a Hindu, I would not expect @Vinayaka to adhere to the Bible.

That would be correct. When I got the Gideon's version in Grade 5, I read the first 3 pages, and it was all gobbledygook. My baseball glove called me outside, and that was my last attempt at reading it. The behavior of the people who had read it told me it couldn't be that great of a book.

 

[Vinayaka]

You misunderstand these religions - BTW I would set Judaism apart from Christianity & Islam
The latter two are simple Master - Slave religions - ancient people living under Kings, Dictators used them as a template for God
Hence all the - Get down on our knees, beg, grovel, blindly obey, sing only his praises etc
Take their Terminology - "Commandments, Submit, beg, obey, judge, wrath, punish, mercy, forgive, Fear" - ALL Slave/Servant words totally absent in Hinduism/Buddhism
But that was life back then and these uneducated simple ancients envisioned an afterworld that was similar to their own
A King like God sitting on his Throne in the Heavens, Heaven is his Kingdom, only open to loyal believers and supporters
The rest to suffer in hell
In today's world that would be like living in Russia or North Korea - the few living the good life because they believed and supported the "Dear Loving Master" and the rest suffer
.
These religions and followers have sold their soul to the conversion industry
The way to push conversions is to divide and rule
Consider that if you are up for a job and the best candidate gets the job, then the corrupt official would not gain anything
The only way he gets money is by installing Corrupt managers who then decide who gets the job
These religions use the same methods
"Good works won't get you into Heaven, you have to have belief" but wait, not just any belief, but of course theirs
Only their God gets to decide whether you get the job(get into heaven) or not
And now you see why they are sinners - they are sinners and NEED God to get them to Heaven, see?
To people with a slave mentality, it makes total sense
.
But Hinduism says we are ALL Children of God - Mother Sita is referred to as well, Mother - same with all other Female Gods
We are not slaves, sinners - hence these ideas seem strange to us

I concur.

 

[Vinayaka]

I see your anger
Hinduism asks us to see the good in everyone
Christ did not come to push religion - to push hate based on religion
That is what these religions have done and are doing
A Weaponized God, Segregated Heavens - that is why Gandhiji said I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians
Don't confuse a religion with their followers
To me, Hinduism is a Warrior faith - all our Gods fought evil, they did not back down
But centuries of foreign rule has mellowed Hindus - today, we refuse to speak up for our faith
We are abused as 2nd class people in this world and we don't speak up

Anger? That's a jump.

 

[Vinayaka]

That statement is as broad as you accuse other people of when talking of Hinduism.

The Bible is clear, we are all born in the image and potential of divinity, it is our core potential.

Genesis 1:27
James 3:9

Regards Tony

Should I get my list of insults that your prophet cast upon all those who didn't believe in him? Blind, deaf, sick, etc?

 

[Vinayaka]

That is not true of 'all' the Abrahamic religions. The Baha'i Faith acknowledges that we all have two natures, a material nature and a Divine nature, and since we have free will we can choose to act according to one or the other.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

The problem I've seen in your faith is that in order to see that divine nature, you have to convert to it. Hindus have been using 'namaskaram' for a very long time.

 

[danieldemol]

Aha, now you are more specific.

You mean Baha'u'llah had quoted verses of the Quran, but it was a bit different than exact wording as it was in the Quran.

This argument assumes, that Baha'u'llah had wanted to quote the exact wording.
I don't believe Baha'u'llah wanted to quote Quran verses. He did not need to. He was speaking with the essence of those verses.
It may also be that, you think, there were grammatical errors in the writings of Baha'u'llah. If that's what you understood, certainly that's not the case. There was no error. Just different wordings. I already know some of the Writings of Baha'u'llah in Iqan, that, He refers or uses certain expressions or parts of the verses of the Quran, with slight variations.

No, I mean in my view his wordings were grammatically different from the Quran, and afterwards he fixed the grammar. And it took him not one go to fix the grammar but several times over the period of a year as suggested by an ordinary human, which begs the question that did he not know it was grammatically incorrect, and if it was his purpose to be grammatically incorrect why did he need to fix it? Furthermore why didn't he fix it all in one go, why did it take several failed attempts? Why did he need a fallible human to suggest the corrections, didn't he know of them himself?

 

[danieldemol]

The key thought here I have CG is there is a reason that the Bab was executed and Baha'u'llah was banished.

The most learned divines of the age they lived were unable to refute what they offered as the Bab and Baha'u'llah could quote from the Quran and the traditions in support of the New Word they offered. As such it was the essence of those passages, showing them in a different light, that was rejected by the Divines.

The Shah sent his most learned mullah to determine if the Bab was sane and the Mesage was valid, he sent Siyyid Yahya Darabi to interview the Bab. You should read his story, he was a man that all would turn to on matters relating to the Quran, he had memorised over 30,000 hadiths. He had 3 meetings with the Bab.

Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

bahaichronicles.org

That story is all that is needed in reply to such an OP.

Edit: I add a quote from the link.

"We verified all the traditions in the text and found them to be entirely accurate."

There are similar stories for Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

So an appeal to authority is all you got in my view.
And no he was not a man that all would turn to concerning the Quran as other wise all would have accepted his ruling that Baha'u'llah was in the Quran. Beware the sales pitch of the hagiographers in my view

 

[Trailblazer]

Should I get my list of insults that your prophet cast upon all those who didn't believe in him? Blind, deaf, sick, etc?

Please share those, but make sure it is from the authoritative Writings of Baha'u'llah and not some gobbledygook posted on a detractor's website.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem I've seen in your faith is that in order to see that divine nature, you have to convert to it. Hindus have been using 'namaskaram' for a very long time.

Why on earth would you think that? Anyone can be expressive of their divine nature, even atheists and agnostics.

 

[CG Didymus]

The key thought here I have CG is there is a reason that the Bab was executed and Baha'u'llah was banished.

The most learned divines of the age they lived were unable to refute what they offered as the Bab and Baha'u'llah could quote from the Quran and the traditions in support of the New Word they offered. As such it was the essence of those passages, showing them in a different light, that was rejected by the Divines.

The Shah sent his most learned mullah to determine if the Bab was sane and the Mesage was valid, he sent Siyyid Yahya Darabi to interview the Bab. You should read his story, he was a man that all would turn to on matters relating to the Quran, he had memorised over 30,000 hadiths. He had 3 meetings with the Bab.

Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

bahaichronicles.org

That story is all that is needed in reply to such an OP.

Edit: I add a quote from the link.

"We verified all the traditions in the text and found them to be entirely accurate."

There are similar stories for Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Well thanks, Tony... I don't know much about the Quran, but going by what Baha'is believe of the Bible and NT, I'd have to say that Baha'u'llah changed everything to fit his teachings.

Ishmael vs. Isaac... Jesus showing himself to be alive with a flesh and bone body... Satan, hell and demons not real... The Bible and the NT tell of these things as if they really happened. Why not Baha'is?

Since there is a good chance that no manifestation wrote any of these stories, why accept them as true? But, for me, it's even worse to say those stories as told and believed true for centuries were meant to be symbolic?

Even the stories that Baha'u'llah tells of Noah and Abraham have little or nothing to do with the Bible stories. Maybe he confounded the Islamic scholars about the Quran. But how did he convince those Christian scholars that met him? You have a link to those guys?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, I mean in my view his wordings were grammatically different from the Quran, and afterwards he fixed the grammar. And it took him not one go to fix the grammar but several times over the period of a year as suggested by an ordinary human, which begs the question that did he not know it was grammatically incorrect, and if it was his purpose to be grammatically incorrect why did he need to fix it? Furthermore why didn't he fix it all in one go, why did it take several failed attempts? Why did he need a fallible human to suggest the corrections, didn't he know of them himself?

The paper you referenced explains it:

"A careful study of the changes that were made clearly shows that the verses of the
Qur’án that were not quoted exactly in the first edition of the Íqán were brought into ex￾act conformity in the new edition. As Mr. Buck is undoubtedly aware, when Bahá’u’lláh quotes His own Writings in a Tablet, He not infrequently quotes them in a form that, while conveying the essential meaning of the original, is not in exactly the same words. It would seem that in revealing the Kitáb-i Íqán, He followed the same practice in relation to passages He quoted from the Qur’án. The fact that He Himself had them later changed to
be in accordance with the accepted text of the Qur’án makes it clear that He was fully aware of the matter and, moreover, that the change in wording had no effect on the pur￾port of His argument. "


This is not mistakes or errors. Some references to the Quran, were not quoted exactly as the Quran. Baha'u'llah had quoted them in His own wording. Apparently later, He, or one of His servants edited to make them in the same wordings of the Quran.

Although for me personally don't make a difference if the wording is exactly as the Quran, or not. But seems like some people care about that, so, Baha'u'llah changed it for them.

 

[danieldemol]

The paper you referenced explains it:

"A careful study of the changes that were made clearly shows that the verses of the
Qur’án that were not quoted exactly in the first edition of the Íqán were brought into ex￾act conformity in the new edition. As Mr. Buck is undoubtedly aware, when Bahá’u’lláh quotes His own Writings in a Tablet, He not infrequently quotes them in a form that, while conveying the essential meaning of the original, is not in exactly the same words. It would seem that in revealing the Kitáb-i Íqán, He followed the same practice in relation to passages He quoted from the Qur’án. The fact that He Himself had them later changed to
be in accordance with the accepted text of the Qur’án makes it clear that He was fully aware of the matter and, moreover, that the change in wording had no effect on the pur￾port of His argument. "


This is not mistakes or errors. Some references to the Quran, were not quoted exactly as the Quran. Baha'u'llah had quoted them in His own wording. Apparently later, He, or one of His servants edited to make them in the same wordings of the Quran.

Although for me personally don't make a difference if the wording is exactly as the Quran, or not. But seems like some people care about that, so, Baha'u'llah changed it for them.

You are reading a partially irrelevant section in my view, at the bottom of page 28 Baha'u'llah admits to changes of a grammatical nature.
I'd copy across the relevant section now for you but I'm on a bugged old phone which is currently not letting me do copy pastes so if you can't be bothered looking at the final paragraph of page 28 I'll copy it across tonight from my PC.

 

[danieldemol]

@InvestigateTruth
Here is the relevant section;
'"The Research Department speaks of other kinds of textual changes as well: stylistic and grammatical. In his Questions and Answers, supplemental to the Kitáb-i Aqdas, Bahá’u’lláh himself discloses the editing process and reasons for it: “Many Tablets were revealed and dispatched in their original form without being checked and reviewed. Consequently, as bidden, they were again read out in the Holy Presence, and brought into conformity with the grammatical conventions of the people in order to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause.”87'
Source: https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_symbol_secret.pdf p28


This raises the following questions in my view;
1. For what purpose did he allegedly "reveal" the documents with the grammatical non-conformities, did he not know before he authored it that it would cause the opponents of the Baha'i cause to object?
2. Why did it take him several attempts over the period of a year to remove the grammatical nonconformities, surely if he knew what they were he could have fixed them all in one go?
3. Why did the grammatical non-conformities have to be suggested by an ordinary human? Didn't Baha'u'llah know what they were without human help?

Just to remind you from the next page 29 the Baha'i world centre acknowledges;
'It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other'

 

[PearlSeeker]

You misunderstand these religions - BTW I would set Judaism apart from Christianity & Islam
The latter two are simple Master - Slave religions - ancient people living under Kings, Dictators used them as a template for God

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Heaven only if you are with Jesus"
"Good works won't get you into Heaven - one must have belief and that too the "right" one, one must accept Christ or else!"
The push for converts - Billions spent and are being spent - conversion works only if you preach division and hate
The carrot and stick method - Heaven if you convert, Hell if you don't - all based on religion, belief
The afterworld for Billions of Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists will be like being Jews in Nazi Germany

People do like talking for God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Should I get my list of insults that your prophet cast upon all those who didn't believe in him? Blind, deaf, sick, etc?

Go your hardest if it makes you happy.

I would suggest though, if you do choose to do that, It would not be reflecting the potential of our goodness.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well thanks, Tony... I don't know much about the Quran, but going by what Baha'is believe of the Bible and NT, I'd have to say that Baha'u'llah changed everything to fit his teachings.

Same passages, given with different frames of reference supported by new ideas.

Exactly how Christianity and Islam were born, in fact it is how all new Faiths from God are born.

It is a choice, stay with the old and reject all else, or embrace the new that is inclusive of the old. I made my choices, best of luck with your choices, I hope you do a lot better than me.

Did you read the link, the story told by the very person that met the Bab?

Regards Tony