If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

[Hermit Philosopher]

I believe that Baha'is and other groups who claim to follow the return of Christ have their questions incomplete.

One not only needs a criteria of what a true claimant would look like, when multiple people make the case to fit those criteria, it is also helpful to have a set of criteria for what a false claimant would look like, so this thread is for how we can know that a claimant is *not* Christ.

In that regard I think it is helpful for as not only to know what a Christ is, but also what a Christ is not.

According to Baha'u'llah (one of the numerous "return of Christ" claimants), one of the features of Christ is that he is infallible. Though I dont know if this claim is justified in the Biblical texts, nonetheless it would be unwise to treat a demonstrably fallible person as if infallible.

So one of the things that might be a criterion of *not* being the Christ is making errors in one's own holy writings, having them pointed out by another fallible human, then having to re-edit the text multiple times.

But then Baha'u'llah appears to *not* be a return of Christ in my view because that is what he appears to have done;

'Bahā’u’llāh is probably the only Prophet ever who has revised and changed the errors in his own writings, and the only erring infallible. Unfortunately, some people fail to see why these errors must not be committed by a divine figure who carries God’s messages. Some people fail to realize that God’s words don’t need to be edited, proofread, and changed, especially if they have been penned by the “Unerring Pen.” To make matters worse, the UHJ explicitly mentions that many of the changes were suggested to Bahā’u’llāh by an ordinary person: 481 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 71. 482 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 78. 483 This can be deduced from his statement “then they would be like your words,” which was uttered by Bahā’u’llāh to state that there must be a difference between the words of God and the words of the people and this difference exists in the grammatical conventions. 217 It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other.484 These words show how helpless Bahā’u’llāh was in correcting his errors. Every time he fixed the errors some more were found and he was again forced to make changes in the book and give out a new revised version. He even needed a fallible person to point out these errors and give him suggestions. Thus, the book was not revised once but numerous times. If these changes were made to “to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause” then why not change it accordingly once and shut the mouth of the opponents once and for all. Are the words of God some sort of joke that must be changed every time someone objects to them? The words of God are perfect they need not be changed for style and grammar. These acts by Bahā’u’llāh are in direct contradiction with the claimed infallibility and divine knowledge attributed to him. What is the difference between this Baha’i prophet and all other ordinary men who make mistakes and correct them later on? What kind of an Omniscient God do Baha’is believe in that cannot foresee the troubling consequences of his revelations and changes them multiple times and gives out newer versions and editions?!'

Source:
Twelve Principles:
A Comprehensive Investigation on
the Baha’i Teachings
Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali
Translated by: Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri
page 216-217

Which can be downloaded here: https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

TL : DR? What criterion demonstrate a person is *not* the "return of Christ"?

They lack humility, are impatient with and “pity” those who do not understand or who misunderstand them.

In short: they speak and act from ego and “strike back” in different ways, instead of “turning the other cheek” in full faith in the divine wisdom that they possess.

That said, the “return of Christ” need not depict an actual individual; it could refer to a collective mindset.

 

[LuisDantas]

TL : DR? What criterion demonstrate a person is *not* the "return of Christ"?

I can't think of any.

All in all, I just don't care.

 

[Sargonski]

I do not believe anything you offer demonstrates/proves or implies that God does not have sons.

Correct .. nothing I said implies that God does not have sons .. what the Jewish Bible tells us is that there are many Gods .. some of which had sons.

 

[YoursTrue]

Correct .. nothing I said implies that God does not have sons .. what the Jewish Bible tells us is that there are many Gods .. some of which had sons.

I'd appreciate it if you could cite the biblical references.

 

[Sargonski]

It makes sense to me because God is not a man the way the OT depicts God.

You have no idea what a God is .. or what God is not .. so let us not pretend this is the case. If you do not believe how the Gods are depicted in the Bible .. tht is fine .. but this is no basis for claiming that you know defacto what God looks like.

What is contradictory and irrational .. is believing that you are in the image of God .... then claiming that God is not anthropomorphic.

If the Gods (US) are "Like You" and "in your image" .. then these Gods are anthropomorphic .. lookig and acting like humans.

Now perhaps your God is not like YHWH .. This is fine .. YHWH is not the God of Jesus either .. not every God is the evil demiurge.

 

[Spice]

Why do you keep spelling the word God with a hyphen? Perhaps you can try answering that. please. then maybe we can discuss other subjects. Thank you and please, right?

It's a common practice in some religions as a mark of respect to not fully spell it out.

 

[Sargonski]

I'd appreciate it if you could cite the biblical references.

Did I not give a bunch of them already .. starting with Psalm 82 New Engish Translation ..

1. YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]
4. I say,[m] ‘You are gods; all of you are sons of the Most High.’[n]

In this scene we have Lord YHWH standing in the "Assembly of EL" .. in the midst of the Gods.

There is no doubt as to what the Assembly of EL is referring to .. aka "Divine Council of EL" "Congregation of EL" .. its a big who do up in the heavens where all the Gods assemble.. El is the Chief God of the Council .. the Most High .. actually referred to as "God Supreme" in the hebrew transliteration .. same epiphet used for the God worshiped by Abraham and Melchi-Zedek Genesis 14:19-20 You can view both for yourself here .. Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible

Now .. you may not be familiar with the Assembly of EL .. nor a translator 10th century AD .. but every living soul in and around Jerusalem from Abe through the end of the Israelites .. all the peoples around Israel .. knows what the Assembly of EL is.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have no idea what a God is .. or what God is not .. so let us not pretend this is the case. If you do not believe how the Gods are depicted in the Bible .. tht is fine .. but this is no basis for claiming that you know defacto what God looks like.

What is contradictory and irrational .. is believing that you are in the image of God .... then claiming that God is not anthropomorphic.

If the Gods (US) are "Like You" and "in your image" .. then these Gods are anthropomorphic .. lookig and acting like humans.

Now perhaps your God is not like YHWH .. This is fine .. YHWH is not the God of Jesus either .. not every God is the evil demiurge.

I believe that some of God's attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient, but that dos not mean that God displays those attributes like a human would, so that is not anthropomorphic. Humans have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are. That is what I mean when I say we were made in God's image.

 

[YoursTrue]

Did I not give a bunch of them already .. starting with Psalm 82 New Engish Translation ..

1. YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]
4. I say,[m] ‘You are gods; all of you are sons of the Most High.’[n]

In this scene we have Lord YHWH standing in the "Assembly of EL" .. in the midst of the Gods.

There is no doubt as to what the Assembly of EL is referring to .. aka "Divine Council of EL" "Congregation of EL" .. its a big who do up in the heavens where all the Gods assemble.. El is the Chief God of the Council .. the Most High .. actually referred to as "God Supreme" in the hebrew transliteration .. same epiphet used for the God worshiped by Abraham and Melchi-Zedek Genesis 14:19-20 You can view both for yourself here .. Online Hebrew Interlinear BibleRi

Now .. you may not be familiar with the Assembly of EL .. nor a translator 10th century AD .. but every living soul in and around Jerusalem from Abe through the end of the Israelites .. all the peoples around Israel .. knows what the Assembly of EL is.

Right, thank you. And Jesus did quote that at John 10:34,35 -- Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’?

 

[Sargonski]

I believe that some of God's attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient, but that dos not mean that God displays those attributes like a human would, so that is not anthropomorphic. Humans have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are. That is what I mean when I say we were made in God's image.

KK -- the thread topic is about how you know Christ .. which could be taken as how you know its God .. Jesus being the symbolic representation of God's word .. K ?

Now .. on this basis I thought we were talking about a God of the Bible .. how you would know that God. You on the other hand are talking about a completely different God .. a God not from the Bible .. but.. from somewhere else ... sounds like no depiction of any religion that I know ... so guessing this is something you made up for yourself .. and your "In our Image .. "Like Us" has nothing to do with the Bible story .. this was something you came up with on your own.

K .. now you say this God is only merciful gracious loving and so on .. "Only Good" .. and that as humans we could reflect this .. which is fine but ignores the capability to do evil .. which thus .. is also a reflection of God .. and despite this being an accident not of your intention ... you have stumbled on to a good lesson about your God .. and learned some things you did not know about your God .. "The Dark Side of the Moon"

 

[Sargonski]

Right, thank you. And Jesus did quote that at John 10:34,35 -- Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’?

Jesus depicted in a moment of Sarcasm using Psalm 82 is an argument for what exactly ? The NT has absolutely nothing to do interpretation of the perspective of a 900 BC Israelite or the Songs they sang in the Temple of YHWH .. all of whom believed in and worshiped many Gods .. all know of El Their ancestral High God in Heaven and "the Assembly of EL" YHWH is not standing in the midst of humans .. in verse 1 .. but in the midst of the Gods. That is what these folks believed .. and it is there story after all .. the NT a different story glommed on 1000 years later has absolutely no bearing on the meaning of the Jewish Bible story..

The Story is the about the battle among the "Sons of God" to usurp EL's position as Chief God on Earth. El still resides as Chief God in the Heavens .. and chief God of State .. and the Zedokite priesthood. these battles are what we read about in Joshua and Kings .. YHWH even loses a famous battle against the God of the Moabites .. but ends up winning the war in this Story and song.

YHWH is worshiped alongside his Consort Asherah Queen of Heaven.. .. if you go into the Temple you will find the pleasant scent of Heavenly Hash mixed with frankenscence .. and have your choice of male or femle temple prostitutes. -- and if you fancy a little sacrifice that is up the hill out back .. and over in the corner is the place for worship of Anat .. daughter of Asherah and YHWH .. a Divine Trinity .. Father - Mother- Daughter ... and sorry .. these folks don't know anything about Jesus or Paul or any of the ideas or teachings of these folks.

 

[YoursTrue]

7

Jesus depicted in a moment of Sarcasm using Psalm 82 is an argument for what exactly ? The NT has absolutely nothing to do interpretation of the perspective of a 900 BC Israelite or the Songs they sang in the Temple of YHWH .. all of whom believed in and worshiped many Gods .. all know of El Their ancestral High God in Heaven and "the Assembly of EL" YHWH is not standing in the midst of humans .. in verse 1 .. but in the midst of the Gods. That is what these folks believed .. and it is there story after all .. the NT a different story glommed on 1000 years later has absolutely no bearing on the meaning of the Jewish Bible story..

The Story is the about the battle among the "Sons of God" to usurp EL's position as Chief God on Earth. El still resides as Chief God in the Heavens .. and chief God of State .. and the Zedokite priesthood. these battles are what we read about in Joshua and Kings .. YHWH even loses a famous battle against the God of the Moabites .. but ends up winning the war in this Story and song.

YHWH is worshiped alongside his Consort Asherah Queen of Heaven.. .. if you go into the Temple you will find the pleasant scent of Heavenly Hash mixed with frankenscence .. and have your choice of male or femle temple prostitutes. -- and if you fancy a little sacrifice that is up the hill out back .. and over in the corner is the place for worship of Anat .. daughter of Asherah and YHWH .. a Divine Trinity .. Father - Mother- Daughter ... and sorry .. these folks don't know anything about Jesus or Paul or any of the ideas or teachings of these folks.

I thought we were talking about the term 'gods' and how it is used in the Bible.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I can't think of any.

All in all, I just don't care.

Well, you care enough to share your lack of concern

 

[Sargonski]

7

I thought we were talking about the term 'gods' and how it is used in the Bible.

Indeed the multiple God's of the Bible was the discussion .. you asked for a passage(s) where multiple Gods were mentioned. Psalm 82:1 .. is one of those passages given you . YHWH is standing in the Assembly of EL - in the midst of the Gods he renders Judgement.

What part of the term "Gods" / Elohim (Pl) in this case refers to (Gods - Plural) in the Bible did you not realize we were talking about ?

What part of the phrase - "The Assembly of El" refers to many Gods - did you not realize was being discussed ?

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, you care enough to share your lack of concern

Indeed.

It is important that people realize and periodically remember that not everyone will - or should - place the Mythical Jesus in a privileged part of their concerns.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now .. on this basis I thought we were talking about a God of the Bible .. how you would know that God. You on the other hand are talking about a completely different God .. a God not from the Bible .. but.. from somewhere else ... sounds like no depiction of any religion that I know ... so guessing this is something you made up for yourself .. and your "In our Image .. "Like Us" has nothing to do with the Bible story .. this was something you came up with on your own.

I am talking about the same God, the one true God of all the great religions, and that God was depicted differently in different scriptures. When it comes to knowing about God, I go by my own scriptures, the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Or do you believe that the Bible is the only scripture that ever came from God?

K .. now you say this God is only merciful gracious loving and so on .. "Only Good" .. and that as humans we could reflect this .. which is fine but ignores the capability to do evil .. which thus .. is also a reflection of God .. and despite this being an accident not of your intention ... you have stumbled on to a good lesson about your God .. and learned some things you did not know about your God .. "The Dark Side of the Moon"

The human capability to do evil is a reflection of our lower material nature, as opposed to our higher spiritual nature that reflects God.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

The human capability to do evil is not a reflection of God. Only humans can do evil and evil is a result of humans breaking God's laws.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

 

[YoursTrue]

Indeed the multiple God's of the Bible was the discussion .. you asked for a passage(s) where multiple Gods were mentioned. Psalm 82:1 .. is one of those passages given you . YHWH is standing in the Assembly of EL - in the midst of the Gods he renders Judgement.

What part of the term "Gods" / Elohim (Pl) in this case refers to (Gods - Plural) in the Bible did you not realize we were talking about ?

What part of the phrase - "The Assembly of El" refers to many Gods - did you not realize was being discussed ?

There is only one Almighty God, who reigns or rules above others that are called gods. That could include angels as well as humans.

 

[Muffled]

It is not about how you read it .. this is the whole point .. nor about how I read it .. nor about how your Priest or the theologian reads it.

The question is how did Abraham read it .. / what did Abe think in 1800BC .. and those around him .. and/or the Israelite and those around him in 900 BC.

To your question .. It is YHWH who says "Have no other God's before me" .. .. so I don't think the two are different ?? .. YHWH is the God of Exodus 20 .. what YHWH is not is the God of Abraham "EL" Chief God of the Canaanite Pantheon .. and head of the Divine Council of Psalm 82


1. YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[

Abe and all thouse around him .. the Israelites and all the peoples around them .. know what the Assembly of EL is. and the footnote c tells you this .. click and read

The phrase עֲדַת אֵל (ʿadat ʾel, “assembly of El”) appears only here in the OT. (1) Some understand “El” to refer to God himself. In this case he is pictured presiding over his own heavenly assembly. (2) Others take אֵל as a superlative here (“God stands in the great assembly”), as in Pss 36:6 and 80:10. (3) The present translation assumes this is a reference to the Canaanite high god El, who presided over the Canaanite divine assembly. (See Isa 14:13, where El’s assembly is called “the stars of El.”) In the Ugaritic myths the phrase ʿdt ʾilm refers to the “assembly of the gods,” who congregate in King Kirtu’s house, where Baal asks El to bless Kirtu’s house (see G. R. Driver, Canaanite Myths and Legends, 91). If the Canaanite divine assembly is referred to here in Ps 82:1, then the psalm must be understood as a bold polemic against Canaanite religion. Israel’s God invades El’s assembly, denounces its gods as failing to uphold justice, and announces their coming demise. For an interpretation of the psalm along these lines, see W. VanGemeren, “Psalms,” EBC 5:533-36.

So .. what I am telling you.. is now accepted modern biblical scholarship..

YHWH is one of the Son's of El .. as described in Deut 32:8 .. El Elyon divides the nations of the earth among his children .. YHWH's portion is Jacob.

I believe YHVH says to Moses a the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Muffled]

And God created humans in his own image and we are cruel and jealous.

I believe so. We execute murderers and do our best to protect out freedoms.

 

[Muffled]

And we are also compassionate, merciful and kind.

As our Father in Heaven is also. We are also forgiving.