If Adam had not sinned.

[URAVIP2ME]

and why would jesus turn water into wine? i'm guessing wine doesn't mean wine...

John [2vs6,7] mentions there were six stone water pots.
The size of each container was about the size of two or three [firkins KJV] 5 gallons liquid measure.
Verse 7 says they were filled to the brim [almost overflowing]
So, 'to the brim' would have shown how generous Jesus was to the Bride and Groom. To run out of wine would have always been remembered as a sad part of that wedding reception. Jesus showed how he was being God-like in being generous in supplying surplus wine. After all, some wine could have been saved for another occasion. Jesus was demonstrating for us to also
go beyond the minimum in being generous and hospitable.

Luke [6v38] Jesus encouraged practicing giving: Practice giving and people will give to you. They will pour into your laps a fine measure, pressed down, shaken together, overflowing. For with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you in return.

In other words, Jesus was showing on a small scale what will happen on a large or grand scale during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, when as Isaiah [25v6] wrote about that time when: There would be a banquet for all peoples of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of wine kept on the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow of wine kept on the dregs filtered.

 

[waitasec]

John [2vs6,7] mentions there were six stone water pots.
The size of each container was about the size of two or three [firkins KJV] 5 gallons liquid measure.
Verse 7 says they were filled to the brim [almost overflowing]
So, 'to the brim' would have shown how generous Jesus was to the Bride and Groom. To run out of wine would have always been remembered as a sad part of that wedding reception. Jesus showed how he was being God-like in being generous in supplying surplus wine. After all, some wine could have been saved for another occasion. Jesus was demonstrating for us to also
go beyond the minimum in being generous and hospitable.

Luke [6v38] Jesus encouraged practicing giving: Practice giving and people will give to you. They will pour into your laps a fine measure, pressed down, shaken together, overflowing. For with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you in return.

In other words, Jesus was showing on a small scale what will happen on a large or grand scale during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, when as Isaiah [25v6] wrote about that time when: There would be a banquet for all peoples of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of wine kept on the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow of wine kept on the dregs filtered.

i don't know what you're talking about...
what does this have to do with noah being a drunk...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

waitasec-

John chapter two is in answer to why would Jesus turn water into wine?

Noah Not being a drunk, but Noah got drunk once from those fermented grapes.

 

[waitasec]

waitasec-

John chapter two is in answer to why would Jesus turn water into wine?

Noah Not being a drunk, but Noah got drunk once from those fermented grapes.

and cursed a group of people for it...noah was an arse hole
:yes:

 

[URAVIP2ME]

and cursed a group of people for it...

In Scripture the words of Gen [9v22] could have been in connection to:
Lev [18v7].

We are Not simply talking about someone being nude but naked genitals being exposed as in meaning sexual sins. [abuse or perverse thinking or action]

Ham was exposing his lustful nature. Although it was much later in the history of Ham's descendants 'called the Canaanites' they built up a very bad record of being very immoral and depraved as even secular history informs us.

So, the words of Gen [9v25] were fulfilled much later starting when his descendants [Canaanites] were subjugated by their Semitic 'brothers' Israelites.

 

[waitasec]

In Scripture the words of Gen [9v22] could have been in connection to:
Lev [18v7].

We are Not simply talking about someone being nude but naked genitals being exposed as in meaning sexual sins. [abuse or perverse thinking or action]

Ham was exposing his lustful nature. Although it was much later in the history of Ham's descendants 'called the Canaanites' they built up a very bad record of being very immoral and depraved as even secular history informs us.

So, the words of Gen [9v25] were fulfilled much later starting when his descendants [Canaanites] were subjugated by their Semitic 'brothers' Israelites.

:biglaugh:
i must admit i admire your sense of imagination
you got all that from this?

gen 9:22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside.

so the word saw means to sexually lust after your fathers genitals?

WOW... that's scary...

 

[McBell]

:biglaugh:
i must admit i admire your sense of imagination
you got all that from this?

gen 9:22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside.

so the word saw means to sexually lust after your fathers genitals?

WOW... that's scary...

Sounds more like transference to me...

 

[James Humphreys]

In Scripture the words of Gen [9v22] could have been in connection to:
Lev [18v7].

We are Not simply talking about someone being nude but naked genitals being exposed as in meaning sexual sins. [abuse or perverse thinking or action]

Ham was exposing his lustful nature. Although it was much later in the history of Ham's descendants 'called the Canaanites' they built up a very bad record of being very immoral and depraved as even secular history informs us.

So, the words of Gen [9v25] were fulfilled much later starting when his descendants [Canaanites] were subjugated by their Semitic 'brothers' Israelites.

I think Ham's sin was more likely that he felt shame about his father, and stirred up the same feeling in his brothers. Noah had saved their lives, so it was important that his sons appreciate their father, and inherit his heart of love towards God. Instead, they felt shame about their father's nakedness, which was a very small thing in view of the life of faith Noah had led. Ham's shame and instigation of the same feeling in his brothers undermined their family's trust in Noah, and so was a sin.

 

[waitasec]

I think Ham's sin was more likely that he felt shame about his father, and stirred up the same feeling in his brothers. Noah had saved their lives, so it was important that his sons appreciate their father, and inherit his heart of love towards God. Instead, they felt shame about their father's nakedness, which was a very small thing in view of the life of faith Noah had led. Ham's shame and instigation of the same feeling in his brothers undermined their family's trust in Noah, and so was a sin.

just wanted to reiterate that point...
seems people in the OT got upset over insignificant little things and the consequences became extreme...instead of shrugging it off they chose the drama queen route...starting off with gods hostile reaction in regards to the forbidden fruit sitch..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

just wanted to reiterate that point...
seems people in the OT got upset over insignificant little things and the consequences became extreme...instead of shrugging it off they chose the drama queen route...starting off with gods hostile reaction in regards to the forbidden fruit sitch..

Scripture says: he that is faithful in least will be faithful in much.

Disobedience was Not a small matter because all three: Satan, Adam and Eve were created with: perfection. Adam was humanly perfect with a healthy sound heart, mind and body and could only sin on purpose.

God's sovereignty was challenged. Who has the right to rule over us?
Whose rulership is best for mankind? God rule or man rule?

By Adam stealing God's fruit, Adam was taking the law into his own hands and setting up people rule as superior to God's way of ruling.

Since all are created as free moral agents, then God allowed Adam to choose if he wanted to be independent from God. Adam by disobedience was choosing independence from his Creator.

By earth's woeful condition today Jeremiah's words [10v23] have proven true that man can not successfully direct his step. So, we need God to step in and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth. God can and he will.
-Rev 11v18 B; 19v15

 

[Azekual]

If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven?

No. Adam, and later Eve, were Immortal. If they had children before they sinned, we would still be in Eden (God does not pass judgement on children until they reach the "Age of accountability", the children would have stayed in Eden and would not have been born with Adam's Sin) and we would all have physical immortality instead of only spiritual immortality.
Back on subject: I can only imagine what happened to Adam after his death. He may have gone to heaven, but given that Judaism hadn't been founded when he died, his sin probably put him in Hell. He apparently retained bits of his immortality, as Genesis tells us he was 930 years old when he died.

 

[waitasec]

Scripture says: he that is faithful in least will be faithful in much.

Disobedience was Not a small matter because all three: Satan, Adam and Eve were created with: perfection. Adam was humanly perfect with a healthy sound heart, mind and body and could only sin on purpose.

God's sovereignty was challenged. Who has the right to rule over us?
Whose rulership is best for mankind? God rule or man rule?

By Adam stealing God's fruit, Adam was taking the law into his own hands and setting up people rule as superior to God's way of ruling.

Since all are created as free moral agents, then God allowed Adam to choose if he wanted to be independent from God. Adam by disobedience was choosing independence from his Creator.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2541047-post333.html

 

[waitasec]

No. Adam, and later Eve, were Immortal. If they had children before they sinned, we would still be in Eden

nice, overpopulation. not a well thought out argument.

(God does not pass judgement on children until they reach the "Age of accountability", the children would have stayed in Eden and would not have been born with Adam's Sin)

not according to the 10 commandments:
ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

and we would all have physical immortality instead of only spiritual immortality.

:biglaugh:
so you think the sun revolves around the earth too...

Back on subject: I can only imagine what happened to Adam after his death. He may have gone to heaven, but given that Judaism hadn't been founded when he died, his sin probably put him in Hell. He apparently retained bits of his immortality, as Genesis tells us he was 930 years old when he died.

the story of the fall is a myth
here's one of the reasons why...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2541047-post333.html

 

[Azekual]

nice, overpopulation. not a well thought out argument.

Immortality only means you don't get old. A tiger can maul you and you will die. also, the arguement is just an idea, not meant too be taken too seriously.

punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

But the 10 commandments were only issued as part of God's Covenant with Moses. If man were still in the Garden, the 10 commandments would have never been issued.
So Adam and Eve would be out of the Garden, but their children would live on in the garden, free of original sin.

so you think the sun revolves around the earth too...

the story of the fall is a myth
here's one of the reasons why...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2541047-post333.html

like I said, my arguments aren't supposed to be taken too seriously, I present them for the sake of argument and debate. I know that the fall of man is a myth, it is an adaptation of ancient Babylonian (correct me if I'm wrong) creation myth. Replacing El Elyion (sp?) with the Judaic Yahweh (which is arguably also taken from Babylon). My view of Christianity allows me to criticize all aspects of the religion and the god associated with it. I don't take my religion too seriously, so please do not treat me like a bible-thumper who just locked on to a Wiccan teenager. Thank you and I apologize if the tone of this sounds aggressive.

 

[waitasec]

Immortality only means you don't get old. A tiger can maul you and you will die. also, the arguement is just an idea, not meant too be taken too seriously.

however mankind can out smart animals...

But the 10 commandments were only issued as part of God's Covenant with Moses. If man were still in the Garden, the 10 commandments would have never been issued.
So Adam and Eve would be out of the Garden, but their children would live on in the garden, free of original sin.

lets think about that for a second.
adam and eve brought sin into the world...therefore, their children were children of sin, so i would say that yes god does pass judgement children.

like I said, my arguments aren't supposed to be taken too seriously, I present them for the sake of argument and debate. I know that the fall of man is a myth, it is an adaptation of ancient Babylonian (correct me if I'm wrong) creation myth. Replacing El Elyion (sp?) with the Judaic Yahweh (which is arguably also taken from Babylon). My view of Christianity allows me to criticize all aspects of the religion and the god associated with it. I don't take my religion too seriously, so please do not treat me like a bible-thumper who just locked on to a Wiccan teenager. Thank you and I apologize if the tone of this sounds aggressive.

oh i see. i'm arguing for argument sake too.

 

[Azekual]

lets think about that for a second.
adam and eve brought sin into the world...therefore, their children were children of sin, so i would say that yes god does pass judgement children.

I mentioned that for this to work, the children would need to be born before Adam and Eve at from the Tree of knowledge. That way they were born prior to the Original Sin and wouldn't carry it in their genes (the only way I can imagine OS cursing all of mankind). Because they dodged that bullet, Man would continue to exist both inside the garden and out, unless Adam and Eve decided to let the OS die with them.

oh i see. i'm arguing for argument sake too.

Very well
No more treating me like a Bible-thumper who needs to be educated and we will be golden.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Angels are: mortal

Adam and Eve were created: mortal

Mortal meaning their continued existence or life is dependent on obedience to God.

God is immortal [Psalm 90v2] and God grants or gifts immortality to Jesus at John 5v26.

 

[Azekual]

Angels are: mortal

Adam and Eve were created: mortal

Mortal meaning their continued existence or life is dependent on obedience to God.

God is immortal [Psalm 90v2] and God grants or gifts immortality to Jesus at John 5v26.

I mean Immortal in it's purest sense: the inability to age. or very very slow aging, once physical maturity is reached. Other benefits, such as immunity to disease, poisons, and other such things, vary greatly. However in a "pure" immortality paradigm, as presented here, the being with immortality is always vulnerable to physical damage.

15 The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it. 16 But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden—17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.”

According to the verse above, Adam and Eve would have died from the fruit, thus preventing the human race from spreading, but they didn't die. Adam, in fact, lived for nearly a millennium

3 When Adam was 130 years old, he became the father of a son who was just like him—in his very image. He named his son Seth. 4 After the birth of Seth, Adam lived another 800 years, and he had other sons and daughters. 5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.

This must have taken place after the death of Abel and the banishment of Cain, as they are not mentioned. However, this does show Adam's extremely long life despite his death sentence. This can only mean that Adam, and later Eve, were created immortal. But once they had sinned, God took away their immortality.


Angels have immortality, as Archangel Michael supposedly did battle with Lucifer during the latter's rebellion in Heaven, yet is described later in the New testament. Which takes place several millennia later. In addition, angels are confirmed to be physically superior to humans in every way (the reason for Lucifer's rebellion), making them harder to kill and thus slightly closer to invulnerability than humans.

God is Immortal and Invulnerable, completely resistant to all physical damage. However as a being who went to great lengths to allow humanity to return to his side, I'm sure he can have his feelings hurt (he would have simply killed Adam and Eve and started over if he didn't have an emotional attachment to them), though it sounds like a very bad idea to test that theory.


Your definition for mortality confuses me, could you elaborate on it further?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

According to the Book of Mormon
Adam and Eve could not have children in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Azekual]

According to the Book of Mormon
Adam and Eve could not have children in the Garden of Eden.

why not?