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If Adam had not sinned.

Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Jethro said:
If Adam had not sinned, he would have remained in the Garden of Eden for all eternity. For as long as he was in the Garden of Eden, he was able to eat from the Tree of Life. And therefore, there would have been no need for him to go to heaven, for he was already in heaven on earth (paradise). However, God being omniscient, knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and thus heaven was essential, which is why Jesus was chosen to be the sacrificial Lamb before the Creation of the world (1 Peter 1:18-20), and even the Lamb slain from the Creation of the world (Rev. 13:8).
Click to expand...

This would be called a Christian rant.

Let's take a somewhat tighter focus on this topic.

Specifically....Genesis. Real quick...here is the list in Chapter One.
Day One...Light
Day Two... Heaven
Day Three...everything that is green and bears seed.
Day Four...the seasons are set into order....the sun, moon, and stars
Day Five...everything that swims or flies.
Day Six...everything that walks...including Man

Obviously, there are some discussions to make about which items are out of order...some things need be in position before others.
But, we can do that portion later. For now, the list continues.

Day Seven...all is created...God rests...no more will be created.

This isolated living is terminal.
Without a mate, the man is doomed to a solitary life.
A deep sleep is administered.
A rib is removed.
The rib is increased to full stature as a woman.

This is the basic structure of Scripture...Chapter One, and the intro of Chapter Two.

And Jesus is mentioned 'where?' in Genesis?

And sin is mentioned when Cain becomes part of the story....not before.
 
Cordoba

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Thief said:
So?....who wrote the Torah?...forty years before Adam.

Was Adam the first man to walk the earth?
Or the first man to walk with God?

Either way.....someone walking around before Adam?
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The Torah, and other divine revelations, are God's Words, His guidance to mankind to live a happy life here on earth and in the Hereafter

Before Adam, God created other living creatures, of which we know two:

1- Angels, created from light

2- Jinn, created from fire

Adam was the first human being (with a human spirit) to walk the earth

The point of the hadith I quoted is that Adam could not have not sinned as it was God's decree written in The Torah before Adam was created
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Genesis 3v15

Right away God starts the progressive revealing that there would be a 'seed' and that 'seed' proved to be Jesus.
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but along the way he destroyed the inhabitants of the earth with a flood...
so why not impregnate a virgin instead?
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Genesis 2v17 'in the day' is not talking about a literal 24-hr day.
Just like the creative days are not 24-hr days.
'Day' in Scripture has shades of meaning.
Gen. 2v4 sums up all of the creative days as a day.

The 7th day was still on going in Paul's day.- Hebrews chapter 4.

Psalm 90v4 a thousand years are as a watch in the night.
And as 2nd Peter 3v8 says in God's eyes a thousand years are as a day.

So, no one in Genesis could live more than a thousand-year day.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Cordoba said:
The Torah, and other divine revelations, are God's Words, His guidance to mankind to live a happy life here on earth and in the Hereafter

Before Adam, God created other living creatures, of which we know two:

1- Angels, created from light

2- Jinn, created from fire

Adam was the first human being (with a human spirit) to walk the earth

The point of the hadith I quoted is that Adam could not have not sinned as it was God's decree written in The Torah before Adam was created
Click to expand...

So we agree...Adam could not have sinned...but we say so for different reasons.

Which is more important to you?
That we agree?...or the reasons for doing so?
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
URAVIP2ME said:
Genesis 3v15

Right away God starts the progressive revealing that there would be a 'seed' and that 'seed' proved to be Jesus.
Click to expand...

I see from the post you made afterward you can think...however....

This use of verse does not mention Jesus at all.
It is more than a stretch of work to say so.
God is speaking to the serpent and making comment that Man will bruise the serpent's head, and in return the serpent will bruise Man's heel.

Most people kill snakes on sight.

So, the question remains....Jesus?...in Genesis?......nay.

And of course your answer will be a digression of this topic thread.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Thief said:
I see from the post you made afterward you can think...however....
This use of verse does not mention Jesus at all.
It is more than a stretch of work to say so.
God is speaking to the serpent and making comment that Man will bruise the serpent's head, and in return the serpent will bruise Man's heel.
Most people kill snakes on sight.
So, the question remains....Jesus?...in Genesis?......nay.
And of course your answer will be a digression of this topic thread.
Click to expand...

Whose 'feet' are mentioned at Romans 16v20 ?
Please notice that Satan is mentioned in that verse as the one being bruised [crushed].
Doesn't Jesus destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2v14 B ?
So, aren't the 'feet' those of Jesus feet ?

Who is that old serpent at Rev 20v2;12vs9,12 ?

The connection of the serpent in Eden is made to Satan.
God is speaking to Satan at Gen. [3v15] as the one who bruises the symbolic woman's seed [offspring] in the heel [not a fatal blow],
but the woman's seed deals Satan a fatal bruising blow to his head.
Jesus is the only one who destroys Satan. [Heb 2v14 B]
Jesus crushes Satan out of existence. [Rev 21v8]
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
URAVIP2ME said:
Whose 'feet' are mentioned at Romans 16v20 ?
Please notice that Satan is mentioned in that verse as the one being bruised [crushed].
Doesn't Jesus destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2v14 B ?
So, aren't the 'feet' those of Jesus feet ?

Who is that old serpent at Rev 20v2;12vs9,12 ?

The connection of the serpent in Eden is made to Satan.
God is speaking to Satan at Gen. [3v15] as the one who bruises the symbolic woman's seed [offspring] in the heel [not a fatal blow],
but the woman's seed deals Satan a fatal bruising blow to his head.
Jesus is the only one who destroys Satan. [Heb 2v14 B]
Jesus crushes Satan out of existence. [Rev 21v8]
Click to expand...

Salvation ranting.

Your life after death is determined by you.

There's a snake at your heel.
 
Raymond Sheen

Raymond Sheen

Member
Protoman said:
If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven?
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No. Heaven was created for God and the spirit creatures, Earth was created for man. What do you think Jehovah God rested from his work for, because he was tired? No, but to give man time to fill and subdue the earth.
 
Raymond Sheen

Raymond Sheen

Member
Koldo said:
I would like to point out Genesis 3:22 - 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

God banished Adam and Eve from Eden just so they wouldn't be granted with everlasting life by eating the fruit from the tree of life.
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You bring up a very interesting point. It wasn't just a tree of knowledge, it was the tree of knowledge of good and bad. The question is, how did Adam become like one of them, knowing good and bad, or evil? Simply in that to get to know it he decided for himself what was good and what was bad. This was sin, to miss the mark, but what did God Jehovah or the other one of the us in Genesis 3:22, Christ Jesus in his prehuman spirit form actually know about sin? They had no intimate knowledge of sin, or what it was to do bad.

It was an issue of sovereignty, you see?

The tree represented a reminder to Adam that he needed Jehovah's protection and guidance. Eve was deceived, but Adam made a choice to reject it. The world as we know it, founded upon, as Jesus said "the blood of Abel" is God's allowing mankind and Satan to address the question of Jehovah's sovereignty. That is why there is suffering.

The "knowledge" wasn't simply any knowledge being withheld from Adam, as is often thought, it was the intimate awareness, experience of what was bad which was something God himself didn't possess. So it had to be the deciding of what was good and bad. God had warned him what was bad, but he chose to decide for himself what was bad and what was good.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Raymond Sheen said:
No. Heaven was created for God and the spirit creatures, Earth was created for man. What do you think Jehovah God rested from his work for, because he was tired? No, but to give man time to fill and subdue the earth.
Click to expand...

Excellent!....but keep going.....
Would Adam then be a chosen son of God?
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Raymond Sheen said:
You bring up a very interesting point. It wasn't just a tree of knowledge, it was the tree of knowledge of good and bad. The question is, how did Adam become like one of them, knowing good and bad, or evil? Simply in that to get to know it he decided for himself what was good and what was bad. This was sin, to miss the mark, but what did God Jehovah or the other one of the us in Genesis 3:22, Christ Jesus in his prehuman spirit form actually know about sin? They had no intimate knowledge of sin, or what it was to do bad.

It was an issue of sovereignty, you see?

The tree represented a reminder to Adam that he needed Jehovah's protection and guidance. Eve was deceived, but Adam made a choice to reject it. The world as we know it, founded upon, as Jesus said "the blood of Abel" is God's allowing mankind and Satan to address the question of Jehovah's sovereignty. That is why there is suffering.

The "knowledge" wasn't simply any knowledge being withheld from Adam, as is often thought, it was the intimate awareness, experience of what was bad which was something God himself didn't possess. So it had to be the deciding of what was good and bad. God had warned him what was bad, but he chose to decide for himself what was bad and what was good.
Click to expand...

Only the last line can be used.

Adam and Eve were mortal. They knew it.
The opportunity for knowledge was at hand.
They should refrain because they will die?

Use the idea on yourself.
Stop learning.
If you persist...you will die.
 
Raymond Sheen

Raymond Sheen

Member
Thief said:
Only the last line can be used.

Adam and Eve were mortal. They knew it.
The opportunity for knowledge was at hand.
They should refrain because they will die?

Use the idea on yourself.
Stop learning.
If you persist...you will die.
Click to expand...

I will die regardless.
 
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