Trailblazer
Veteran Member
None of those verses say that Jesus is going to return to this earth.
I can find similar verses where Baha'u'llah says that he is the one appointed by God to be judge.
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If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
I can find similar verses where Baha'u'llah says that he is the one appointed by God to be judge.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that everyone who loves Jesus will see Him in heaven one day, and I for one am looking forward to that!
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
It doesn't have to be Baha'u'llah, you're right. Nevertheless most Christians are sure there are no Prophets after Christ.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The man who will come with the new name is presumably the Messiah, as prophesied in the Old Testament.
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.
Baha'is believe that new name was Baha'u'llah, not Muhammad or the Bab.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
We do? Since when? Just because some people who may or may not be inspired by God believe that? I prefer to look at this independently of such people. Independent investigation, you know. I don't know where you got this from, but I doubt it is from someone who I consider authoritative on this.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Okay, I believe that new name was Baha'u'llah, not Muhammad or the Bab. However, I am not the only Baha'i who believes that.
Watch this 10 minute video. The part about the New Name begins at 6:39..... I cry every time I watch this video, every time.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, things get jumbled a lot. Muhammad was the next manifestation after Jesus, but how would Christians know that? Things like Muhammad being the first "Woe" and one of the "Two Witnesses wasn't known until the Baha'i teachings said it. Even the Bab, as a manifestation and as "Elijah", I don't think the NT makes it all that clear.
Like TB keeps asking where does Jesus say that he's coming back. I'm thinking the same thing with "Elijah/John the Baptist" as coming before the return of Jesus. Now, with the Baha'i interpretation, Baha'is see the Bab predicted every time 1260 days is mentioned. Then he's the second of the "Three Woes."
But how clear is it that there would be a manifestation coming from Arabia a few hundred after Jesus? But he wouldn't be the "end-time" manifestation. Then that there would be two back-to-back manifestations in the end-times? Of course, for Baha'is, it is clear. But even now, after all of them have come and gone, it's still not the obvious to non-Baha'is.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
"No more" can mean only that something is absent or stopped - not necessarily that it will never happen again. That's why Jesus says in the same sentence:
John 16
16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
Checkmate!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The answer is nowhere.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
From Isaiah? As I've said, there's no valid reason to believe it couldn't have been referring to Christians. At least the reference from chapter 2 of Revelations couldn't be referring to Christ. Using the reference from chapter 3 alone from Revelations would be more convincing.Okay, I believe that new name was Baha'u'llah, not Muhammad or the Bab. However, I am not the only Baha'i who believes that.
Watch this 10 minute video. The part about the New Name begins at 6:39..... I cry every time I watch this video, every time.
I haven't looked at the video, and I won't. A waste of time.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
no more
- nothing further.
"there was no more to be said about it" - no further.
"you must have some soup, but no more wine" - exist no longer.
"the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more" - never again.
"mention his name no more to me" - neither.
"I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
There is no checkmate. Jesus is never coming back to earth, period.
John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30
As I recall I already posted the meaning of that verse to you, but just in case I did not, I have it all saved in a Word document
Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.
How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven AFTER His disciples were no longer on earth?
John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world:
John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30
John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples. It is not Jesus promising anyone else He will return to earth. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again, which I believe it did, in another person who I believe was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)
Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.
Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.
John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.
We Never Know
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Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
No reason for me to expect it to be obvious to non-Baha'is. Prophecies can be understood in many ways, and at least when it comes to interpretation not by the central figures I don't know that the interpretation is correct myself. @Trailblazer is disagreeing with me a bit about that.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
2 Thessalonians 1
... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
8 in flaming fire...
Matthew 24:30
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
I see no period (after "no more") in that sentence:
John 16
16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
He will resurrect them. Remember, he will come to judge the living and the dead?
John 6
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Yes, part one was finished.
Acts 3
18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled.
Hebrews 10:12
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
But we haven't seen part two yet "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
in flaming fire..."
Hebrews 9
27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
a little while, and ye shall see me
I believe Jesus meant that we would see His spirit return in another man who would be the return of Christ.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
There is nothing about Jesus returning to earth in any of these verses.
The Lord will descend, not Jesus. I believe that already happened since Baha'u'llah was the Lord of Hosts.
“The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272
I believe 'The dead in Christ will rise first' means that those who had forgotten Christ will be the first to recognize Baha'u'llah and remember Christ, since Baha'u'llah glorified Christ. Baha'u'llah did everything that Jesus said He would yet Christians are still waiting for Jesus because they are emotionally attached to the man called Jesus. What they believe is no skin off my nose.
“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who areas dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” Gleanings, p. 213
“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze……
O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead.” Gleanings, p. 169
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
The verse does not say that Jesus will appear on earth a second time. We know that will not happen because of what Jesus said:
John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30
I believe the spirit of Christ did appear a second time, in Baha'u'llah. You are free to believe whatever you wish.
Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of the Spirit of Jesus. You can keep waiting for the body of Jesus if you want to.
“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246
“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18
“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19
“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85
“Ye make mention of Me, and know Me not. Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…. O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate. Rend the veils asunder by the power of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bounteous, and enter, then, in My name My Kingdom. Thus biddeth you He Who desireth for you everlasting life…” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 91
“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92
Baha'u'llah says WE because He is referring to Himself and Jesus Christ. Both of them have borne the misfortunes of the world for our salvation.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Again... Baha'is have no credibility to take something in the gospel of John literally when they don't take anything about the resurrection literally.
If the resurrection is true however, it would destroy the claim that Jesus wouldn't be seen again, because he was... After he was dead for three days and then he came back to life, the disciples saw him again.
A Baha'i, or anyone, that doesn't believe in the Bible and the NT as being literally true, shouldn't go around claiming things true that are based on a literal interpretation of the Bible or NT.
The problem for Baha'is, they can't have Jesus coming back. They believe their guy is the one. Therefore, any verse that remotely makes it sound like it's Jesus is the one coming has to be wrong and/or misinterpreted. Which is fine for them. But then they're left with trying to prove it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
As Baha'is, we do not have to take all of the Bible literally.
From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:
...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)
...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)
When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)
We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)
The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
Even if Jesus rose from the dead and was seen again after he rose, that has no bearing upon whether Jesus was going to return to this world after His ascension to heaven.
We were not talking about the resurrection, we were talking about the return of Christ after His ascension to heaven, so were were discussing whether we would see Jesus in this world again. @PearlSeeker thinks that John 16:16 refers to the return of Christ to this world after His ascension to heaven.
@PearlSeeker said:
I see no period (after "no more") in that sentence:
John 16
16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
I have proven that it won't be Jesus coming back using the Bible time and again. Whether or not Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ is a separate matter. Jesus is not coming back to this earth, period, unless the Bible is in error, in which case there is no logical reason to believe any verses in the Bible are true.
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