If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him?

[Trailblazer]

I'd like to hear how InvestigateTruth and the other Baha'is think about that Christian belief.

Meet the Lord in the air? I consider the belief utterly absurd. That belief comes from the following verses:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - Bible, King James Version​

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, the resurrected (spiritual) body is a body - not a ghost or spirit (as you said).

If the Christians are correct, it is a "glorified" physical body. If the Baha'is are right, the whole resurrection is a fictional, symbolic story. Jesus, the physical man, is dead and gone. The good news is... he had a spirit that is eternal. And that is what rose.

But, if the gospels aren't literally true, but have fictional (symbolic) stories in them, why not take the next step and say that all of it is essentially fictional?

The virgin birth, walking on water, raising Lazarus and other from the dead, people coming out of their graves when Jesus was crucified, God speaking from heaven, all of those things plus the resurrection... why not make it all fiction and nothing but made-up stories concocted by the followers of Jesus? Why go to all the trouble of coming up with "symbolic" interpretations?

 

[CG Didymus]

Agree. Apostle Thomas is my hero.

Baha'u'llah doesn't convince me because he sucks at exegesis of NT. But so did authors of gospels as well (regarding OT - virgin birth, suffering servant). Karma?

Does it matter for believers? Because I do see how pretty much any religious belief can and does work for those that believe it.

If some guy claims that he's a God-sent prophet and tells his followers to be good people and help others... Then says that God will give them all their desires in a perfect paradise on the other side of the Universe, that part can be completely false. But if the people believe it and do good, they'll probably "feel" the power and the truth of their God and prophet.

Because of that, I can see how most all religions could have been made-up by religious leaders to get their people to do good and follow "God's" laws and to give them money to "guide" them. Then tell them anything they want about heavens and hells and the Gods to scare them for not obeying and to promise them a grand reward if they do obey.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the Christians are correct, it is a "glorified" physical body

There is no such thing as a "glorified" physical body. Those words do not exist together in the Bible, this is a man-made Christian doctrine.
According to the Bible, there are two kinds of bodies, physical bodies and spiritual bodies. There is no hybrid body that is both physical and spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

 

[Sargonski]

But I know I am right, I know the truth. And it is the total opposite of what you are saying.

Why am I wrong and you right?

Wow .. interesting -- and cool down .. no one saying you are wrong .... --- Yet.

You were asked a simple Question ..
1) Do you really think God want you blowing smoke up the royal backside all day long .. day after day .. night after night .. 365 days a year .. every minute every hour .. nothing but robots doing nothing but praising the Creator ? Although I may joke from time to time .. that was a serious question ..

So you are saying it is the Opposite .. that you know for a fact .. that what God wants is every entity he meets .. doing nothing but praising him 24/7 - 365 days a year .. for a Trillion years .. and God did not get board ... and we know this because if God would have wanted Robots .. who do nothing but praise him 24/7 .. he never would have given us brain matter.

Please -- Explain your position -- how you know so much about God's desire for brainless robots .. and yet here you are .. with fully functional Brain ... YET.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the resurrected (spiritual) body is a body - not a ghost or spirit (as you said).

I never said that it was a ghost or a spirit.

 

[Colt]

If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him, and not a fake one?

The sheep of Christ Know his voice. He will also be a celestial being not human.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him, and not a fake one?

You don't.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I never said that it was a ghost or a spirit.

Your words: "The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body..."

 

[Altfish]

Wow .. interesting -- and cool down .. no one saying you are wrong .... --- Yet.

You were asked a simple Question ..
1) Do you really think God want you blowing smoke up the royal backside all day long .. day after day .. night after night .. 365 days a year .. every minute every hour .. nothing but robots doing nothing but praising the Creator ? Although I may joke from time to time .. that was a serious question ..

So you are saying it is the Opposite .. that you know for a fact .. that what God wants is every entity he meets .. doing nothing but praising him 24/7 - 365 days a year .. for a Trillion years .. and God did not get board ... and we know this because if God would have wanted Robots .. who do nothing but praise him 24/7 .. he never would have given us brain matter.

Please -- Explain your position -- how you know so much about God's desire for brainless robots .. and yet here you are .. with fully functional Brain ... YET.

I don't believe in any god. So I don't believe god is doing anything, she doesn't exist.

That is my position .... There are no god or gods

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see any Biblical reason why Jesus and spiritual body could not be back on earth.

Spiritual bodies are made for heaven, physical bodies are made for earth.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

And to me it is clear from the Bible, that Jesus will return.

There are no verses in the Bible where Jesus said He was going to return to earth. Rather, what we have are these verses:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

How do you explain these verses?

Jesus said we would see the Son of man in the clouds of heaven, but I do not believe He was referring to Himself.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

 

[PearlSeeker]

There is also the belief of some Christians that the ones doing God's will, the believers in Jesus, will be "raptured" out of here. And when Jesus returned, they return with him.

It's like in those tv shows when inhabitants temporarily move to an other place so their house can be renovated.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your words: "The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body..."

I thought we were discussing the resurrection, not the ascension.

I know I said that it was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, but that was an interpretation I wrote up some time ago.
Since then I was in a discussion that altered my views, so I now believe that if the disciples saw anything going up it was a spiritual body.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Does it matter for believers? Because I do see how pretty much any religious belief can and does work for those that believe it.

If some guy claims that he's a God-sent prophet and tells his followers to be good people and help others... Then says that God will give them all their desires in a perfect paradise on the other side of the Universe, that part can be completely false. But if the people believe it and do good, they'll probably "feel" the power and the truth of their God and prophet.

Because of that, I can see how most all religions could have been made-up by religious leaders to get their people to do good and follow "God's" laws and to give them money to "guide" them. Then tell them anything they want about heavens and hells and the Gods to scare them for not obeying and to promise them a grand reward if they do obey.

Yes, it works. I think it's good for society if religion helps people live a good life (follow God's will) and be decent citizens. I'm also ok with priests getting paid. They invest much time and effort in doing what they do - studying scripture, guiding believers, performing rituals... They can be very helpful to believers and they also have to do something for a living.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, the resurrected (spiritual) body is a body - not a ghost or spirit (as you said).

The claim the gospel writers are making is that it is a flesh and bone body that Jesus was alive and well and then that body ascended into heaven.

I agree with Baha'is, this is absurd. How is this possible? Oh wait, the God they say they believe in can do anything. He created the world out of nothing. And took dirt and created people.

But anyway, here's Abdul Baha' on the "true" meaning of the resurrection....

We explain, therefore, the meaning of Christ’s resurrection in the following way: After the martyrdom of Christ, the Apostles were perplexed and dismayed. The reality of Christ, which consists in His teachings, His bounties, His perfections, and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and had no outward appearance or manifestation—indeed, it was as though it were entirely lost. For those who truly believed were few in number, and even those few were perplexed and dismayed. The Cause of Christ was thus as a lifeless body. After three days the Apostles became firm and steadfast, arose to aid the Cause of Christ, resolved to promote the divine teachings and practise their Lord’s admonitions, and endeavoured to serve Him. Then did the reality of Christ become resplendent, His grace shine forth, His religion find new life, and His teachings and admonitions become manifest and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ, which was like unto a lifeless body, was quickened to life and surrounded by the grace of the Holy Spirit.6​

​

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy did not grasp the meaning of the Gospels and did not comprehend this mystery, it has been claimed that religion is opposed to science, for among other things the ascension of Christ in a physical body to the material heavens is contrary to the mathematical sciences. But when the truth of this matter is clarified and this symbol is explained, it is in no way contradicted by science but rather affirmed by both science and reason.​

​

I still say, why go to all that trouble. If Baha'is don't believe the resurrection happened, just call it a hoax.

 

[CG Didymus]

It's like in those tv shows when inhabitants temporarily move to an other place so their house can be renovated.

I agree with TB... the rapture is "absurd". But it based on taking something Paul said extremely literally. Some Christians just took it too literally. But then TB takes what Paul said about the two types of bodies as being true. Can things that Paul said be trusted as being the Word of God truth? As TB knows, there's reasons to question it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your words: "The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body..."

I decided to write another interpretation of Acts 1:9-11 since I changed my mind about what I believe the two men dressed in white actually saw going up.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The disciples (Men of Galilee) were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky, and then they said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. The text does not say what the disciples saw going up to heaven, but presumably it was the spiritual body of Jesus, the body that Jesus had after he died physically and was resurrected (transformed).

1 Corinthians 15: 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

The angels said: This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven

That is not a reason to believe that the same Jesus will return as He ascended since angels carry no authority. Moreover, if it was the spiritual body of Jesus that ascended, that body would not come back to earth since spiritual bodies were made for heaven, not for earth.

Moreover, Christians claim that the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven will be Jesus. but all the verses referring to the Son of man appearing say that we will see Him.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The problem is that spiritual bodies cannot be seen by ordinary people, and that is why the disciples were staring up into the sky and had to be told by the angels that it was the spiritual body of Jesus going up to heaven. So, if Jesus returned to earth in a spiritual body nobody would be able to see Him. The invisible Jesus. What would be the point?

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree with TB... the rapture is "absurd". But it based on taking something Paul said extremely literally. Some Christians just took it too literally. But then TB takes what Paul said about the two types of bodies as being true. Can things that Paul said be trusted as being the Word of God truth? As TB knows, there's reasons to question it.

The reason I believe that Paul was right about the two kinds of bodies is because it is congruent with Baha'i beliefs.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

What Paul said about the two types of bodies also makes sense to me. What makes no sense is that physical bodies will rise from their graves and be physical once again. That goes completely against what is scientifically possible. Spiritual bodies do not go against science since they are outside of the purview of science, but science has proven that physical bodies do not come back to life once they die.

 

[Trailblazer]

I still say, why go to all that trouble. If Baha'is don't believe the resurrection happened, just call it a hoax.

If Jesus was resurrected He was resurrected in a spiritual body, as Paul said.
Forget the verse that says "see my hands and my feet." Baha'is believe that Manifestations of God can perform miracles, of course Jesus could make his spiritual body feel and look physical in order to restore the faith of the disciples.

 

[Ajax]

I have been over this with many Christians for over 10 years, and not one Christian can produce any verses where Jesus says He is coming back to earth. None of the verses that say we will see the Son of man coming in the clouds are Jesus saying that HE s coming back.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Ase you sure? In John 14 Jesus speaks to his disciples and says "3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
Unless I do not count for being an agnostic..