If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[Ebionite]

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

He was the righteous servant. Israel is sometimes described as the servant, but never as the righteous servant. Relevant texts are Isaiah 53 and Psalm 35.

 

[Ebionite]

From a completely naturalistic point of view, IF he was not the messiah, he was a rebel leader according to some scholars who take that approach. he was a rebel, he had a movement against Rome, they caught him and killed him as they did with many other rebel leaders.

The allegation that he was a rebel leader was one of the false claims made against him.

And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this [fellow] perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.
Luke 23:2

Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?
Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription?
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Matthew 22:17-21

False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge [things] that I knew not.
Psalms 35:11

 

[firedragon]

The allegation that he was a rebel leader was one of the false claims made against him.

It's a historian's view. Not a biblical view. Not a theological view. I am not arguing against Jesus or the Christian theological view in this thread my friend. I am replying to the OP.

Cheers.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

1. Read Brahma Sutras: https://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_0/Brahma_Sutra.pdf

"Brahmānanda paramsukhadam kevalam gnānamurtim,
dvandvātītam gagansadrisham tattvamasyādilakshyam;
ekam nityam vimalāchalam sarvadhīsākshibhūtam,
bhāvātītam trigunarahitam sadgurum tam namāmi."

(I prostrate myself before that Guru, the Existence, devoid of the three gunas, beyond comprehension, the witness of all mental functions, changeless and pure, one and eternal, transcending the pairs of opposites, expansive like the sky, reachable through the sentences like ‘Thou art That’, the Mass of Absolute Wisdom.)

devoid of the three gunas: Sattva (truth/good), Rajas (possession/maintainance), tamas (bad/destruction)

2. 'Atma' does not mean 'soul'. That is 'atmā' (note the elongation of 'a' at the end). 'Atma' means any 'self', whatsoever, could be of a living being, animal, vegetation or any non-living substance.

Your 1. ..."changeless and pure, one and eternal, transcending the pairs of opposites, etc.", is the underlying omnipresent spiritual energy/atma.
Your 2. Apparently there are many distinctions related to the usage of the concept of Atma, eg., Super Soul, Supreme Soul, Self, spirit, soul, etc.. The meaning I intended was the Supreme Soul, ie., the omnipresent spirit. Atma: English Translation of the Sanskrit word: Atma-- Sanskrit Dictionary

 

[Ebionite]

It's a historian's view. Not a biblical view. Not a theological view. I am not arguing against Jesus or the Christian theological view in this thread my friend. I am replying to the OP.

Cheers.

Historians have to deal with the facts like anyone else, and that's where the facts lead.

 

[firedragon]

Historians have to deal with the facts like anyone else, and that's where the facts lead.

Okay now. See, what are you trying to debate with me about? Tell me honestly.

 

[Ebionite]

Okay now. See, what are you trying to debate with me about? Tell me honestly.

This is a discussion forum, so debate would be against the rules here. The facts that I'm referring to relate to a reinterpretation of of the mission of the man known as Jesus Christ, with an emphasis on prophetic context. My intent is to raise awareness of information relevant to that mission, whether by discussion or debate (in a different forum).

 

[firedragon]

This is a discussion forum, so debate would be against the rules here. The facts that I'm referring to relate to a reinterpretation of of the mission of the man known as Jesus Christ, with an emphasis on prophetic context. My intent is to raise awareness of information relevant to that mission, whether by discussion or debate (in a different forum).

It's not relevant to my comment. Please be kind enough to be relevant to what someone says. Do your intentions on your own.

Thank you.

 

[Ebionite]

It's not relevant to my comment. Please be kind enough to be relevant to what someone says. Do your intentions on your own.

Thank you.

Arguing here is against the rules. If you think you have a point to make then post in a debate forum and mention me so I can respond.

 

[firedragon]

Arguing here is against the rules.

Great. So don't argue with me for no reason whatsoever.

 

[ChieftheCef]

What Is a Metaphor? | Definition & Examples.

You do hide behind that. But metaphor has no place in governing people.

 

[Spice]

It's a historian's view. Not a biblical view. Not a theological view. I am not arguing against Jesus or the Christian theological view in this thread my friend. I am replying to the OP.

Cheers.

IMV, he was a threat and rebel against the Zealots that were building momentum against Roman occupation. The Sadducees, the ones living well under occupation, still didn't like anyone working through the Pharisee majority to squelch the momentum. They wanted the anticipation of freedom to continue to build until it was unstoppable and they were prepared to take true leadership.

Jesus was trying to prevent what still happened in 70 CE -- the total destruction of the second temple, the city of Jerusalem, and yet another disporia of the Jews.

But we did not lose his wisdom of patience, priority, humility, and love of God and each other -- even as his mission for the Father became disjointed.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Your 1. ..."changeless and pure, one and eternal, transcending the pairs of opposites, etc.", is the underlying omnipresent spiritual energy/atma.
Your 2. Apparently there are many distinctions related to the usage of the concept of Atma, eg., Super Soul, Supreme Soul, Self, spirit, soul, etc.. The meaning I intended was the Supreme Soul, ie., the omnipresent spirit. Atma: English Translation of the Sanskrit word: Atma-- Sanskrit Dictionary

1. The verse does not mention 'spiritual' anywhere.
2. Atma (without elongation of 'a' at the end) means 'self' only and none other. And 'Atmā' does not mean 'self' (though it means all other things).

Historians have to deal with the facts like anyone else, and that's where the facts lead.

I wish we knew the facts. What we know is mostly from Bible.

 

[firedragon]

IMV, he was a threat and rebel against the Zealots that were building momentum against Roman occupation.

If you don't mind, what do you base this view on? Thank you very much. I appreciate that kind of decent conversation and academic endeavor.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You do hide behind that. But metaphor has no place in governing people.

Jesus was never about governing people, he was teaching people how best to transcend their lower base body nature to realize the potential of their higher spiritual soul nature.

 

[Ebionite]

Great. So don't argue with me for no reason whatsoever.

Do you think I should have to break the rules to show people the truth?

 

[Spice]

If you don't mind, what do you base this view on? Thank you very much. I appreciate that kind of decent conversation and academic endeavor.

Looking into history, both of the Hebrew people prior to the times of Jesus, but especially the way Palestine was changing during his time and that includes the religious focus.

IMO, Jesus was quite aware, even as a young boy living on the trade route, that more than Rome was effectiving the local life. Remember in the nativity story, wise men from the east were an important factor to be included in the Gospels. Buddhism was growing and with it Hinduism was expanding west. As a carpenter, Joseph would have done business with many travelers and Jesus would have been listening.

At 12 the Gospels tell us he entered the temple very well educated in the Torah and full of questions. His older cousin, John, joined the Essenes sect of Judaism which had to have fascinated such an inquisitive mind. Whether by spiritual enlightenment, or just good observations, by the time his father died, and that appears, though not documented, to have been when Jesus left home, he was inspired to become involved -- to conquer the world.

Now with this backstory, if one reads what he preached, and to whom he preached, he was being a sort of Martin Luther King, Jr. for his time and place.
• humility
• peace
• brotherly love
• give unto Caesar what is Caesar's
• focus on God
• care for the poor, the sick, the widows
• visit those in prison
• let today's worries be enough for today
• the kingdom is in our midst
• don't hide your light under a basket
• son will turn against father, etc.

He talks and debates with the Pharisees. He does his best to stay clear of the Sadducees. He's looking to draw in the tribes of Israel that since Babylonian release are still scattered and mixed in with the Samaritans and Gentiles. He wants to be the Messiah, or perhaps one who opens the way for the Messiah to come. He wants to bring peace to the region despite the activities of the Zealots. But the crowd chose Barabbus, the Zealot.

And in 40 years what Jesus had preached trying to stop, came about anyway. And some of the Apostles witnessed it, as he said they would, but what he was speaking of was misrepresented, IMO.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

1. The verse does not mention 'spiritual' anywhere.
2. Atma (without elongation of 'a' at the end) means 'self' only and none other. And 'Atmā' does not mean 'self' (though it means all other things).
.

If it is not dualistic, ie., transcending the pairs of opposites, it implies the Supersoul.

Atma (without the elongation of the 'a' at the end) can mean Supersoul!

SB 1.9.42 Srimad-Bhagavatam

TEXT 42 tam imam aham ajaṁ śarīra-bhājāṁ hṛdi hṛdi dhiṣṭhitam ātma-kalpitānām pratidṛśam iva naikadhārkam ekaṁ samadhi-gato 'smi vidhūta-bheda-mohaḥ tam—that Personality of Godhead; imam—now present before me; aham—I; ajam—the unborn; śarīra-bhājām—of the conditioned soul; hṛdi—in the heart; hṛdi—in the heart; dhiṣṭhitam—situated; ātma—the Supersoul; kalpitānām—of the speculators; pratidṛśam—in every direction; iva—like; na ekadhā—not one; arkam—the sun; ekam—one only; samadhi-gataḥ asmi—I have undergone trance in meditation; vidhūta—being freed from; bheda-mohaḥ—misconception of duality.

 

[wellwisher]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

The Messiah was also called the Servant by Isaiah.

Isaiah 42: 1-9 Behold my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen, in whom my soul delights;
I have put my Spirit upon him;
he will bring forth justice to the nations.
He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice,
or make it heard in the street;
a bruised reed he will not break,
and a faintly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
He will not grow faint or be discouraged
till he has established justice in the earth;
and the coastlands wait for his law. (vv. 1–4)

Jesus referred to the Messiah in the parable of faithful and wise servant;

Mathew 24:45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

Jesus was not the Messiah, but rather Jesus was the Son of God; higher level management. Satan, from the time of Adam and Eve to the time of Jesus and some time thereafter, was the Lord of the Earth. When Jesus was fasting in the desert, just before beginning his Ministry, Satan tries to tempt Jesus to become Satan's Messiah, by offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth, if Jesus would bow and serve him; Satan's Servant. If Jesus had accepted he would have become that Messiah. But that was not the role of Jesus, so Jesus declines.

The Messiah, as the Servant, is supposed to serve Jesus, getting things ready for his return. But first, there will be war in heaven and Satan has to be thrown from heaven, and his role as Lord of the Earth, no longer sanctioned by Heaven. Woe to the earth, since Satan only has a short time before it is discovered he has been stripped of his heaven authority. He is no longer sanctioned by Heaven, but the humans are not aware of these changes in management. Jesus gains power in heaven, with his servant preparing the way for his return.

The Servant has many roles one of which is he becomes the White Horseman of the Apocalypse; faithful and true, waging war in righteousness. He is dresses in the white of righteousness and has a gold crown on his head.

 

[ChieftheCef]

Jesus was never about governing people, he was teaching people how best to transcend their lower base body nature to realize the potential of their higher spiritual soul nature.

Governing people.