If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[LegionOnomaMoi]

The issue that Kaku was illustrating had to do with trying to find compatibility between Relativity and Quantum Theory.

Quantum theory includes various relativistic quantum theories (the first and best being perhaps quantum electrodynamics). You mean general relativity, although in reality the problem is how to either formulate a theory of gravitation which can be incorporated into quantum theory that isn't general relativity, or to (as you put it), "find a compatibility) between the two. However, it doesn't matter. Black holes don't matter here: the problem is that in general relativity spacetime curvature is a "background" space of sorts within which all interactions, dynamics, physical systems, etc., exist or occur. However, in particle physics/relativistic quantum theory, all forces are mediated through particles; there is no absolute "background" space. Quantum field theories/particle physics works by "quantizing" the necessary forces and entities found in classical physics (e.g., the electromagnetic field or energy) into discrete particles, including forces. In QFT/particle physics, the quantized gravitational force (graviton particles) aren't quantizations of spacetime curvature, because spacetime curvature can't be quantized. So gravity and quantum theory exist in a very problematic relationship, as the "gravity" of quantum physics either doesn't exist or exists in a manner incompatible with the mechanism underlying gravitation in general relativity.
Black holes aren't a problem of the scientific theories or mathematics involved, any more than either of these are involved in the various "impossible" technologies Kaku describes as future technologies that will be realized. That the properties of black holes, which emerge principally from the equations of general relativity, run into problems when we consider those quantum mechanical or quantum field theoretic aspects of their nature, is not a problem presented by black holes. There exists no evidence of black holes that is inconsistent with either particle physics, quantum theory, or general relativity. This is because to the extent we have experimental evidence of black holes, it is based upon the properties ascribed to them by theory that were in accordance with empirical tests. No experimental evidence from black holes present any issues with scientific theory or mathematics. The issues lie in the formulations of the underlying theories themselves, without black holes and without Kaku's issues with infinities.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Forget everything you were trying to understand and it's right there...indescribable.

Yeah, it's right in front of your face, the problem is that people keep being told they have to look at the moon.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Yeah, it's right in front of your face, the problem is that people keep being told they have to look at the moon.

With apologies to YmirGF (and Rick, for taking advantage of his post), I can't resist a further derailment from the current discussion with more talk of physics:
"We now know that the moon is demonstrably not there when nobody looks."
Mermin, N. D. (1981). Quantum mysteries for anyone. The Journal of Philosophy, 78(7), 397-408.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

In fact, all these words denote the same thing - nirvana, moksha, jnana, enlightenment, deliverance, emancipation, etc.

No, they don't. They all have quite specific meanings in the respective traditions they derive from. Are you becoming just another woolly syncretist?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

With apologies to YmirGF (and Rick, for taking advantage of his post), I can't resist a further derailment from the current discussion with more talk of physics:
"We now know that the moon is demonstrably not there when nobody looks."
Mermin, N. D. (1981). Quantum mysteries for anyone. The Journal of Philosophy, 78(7), 397-408.

Dragging the thread back on topic, how dare you! Much appreciated actually.

Could you explain briefly how Mermin came to this conclusion, it sounds intriguing.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Did I say eternal life? And even if I say that it would not be wrong. Even an atom has a life and we measure its half-life. So, every atom of my body will have a life, it will live a life different from other atoms of my body - but at the moment it seems that the life of an atom is eternal, though it may change its forms. Finally, we may find that it may not be so, but that is for science to prove it in future. My Brahman, being 'physical energy' is not a God. Yes, 'physical energy' is mysterious, but slowly and slowly, we are learning more about it. No problem, if you do not think I am a Buddha tathagata.

They all have quite specific meanings in the respective traditions they derive from. Are you becoming just another woolly syncretist?

The different meanings have been given by people in their own ignorance and interests.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Did I say eternal life? And even if I say that it would not be wrong. Even an atom has a life and we measure its half-life. So, every atom of my body will have a life, it will live a life different from other atoms of my body - but at the moment it seems that the life is going to be eternal. Finally, we may find that it may not be so, but that is for science to prove it in future. My Brahman, being 'physical energy' is not a God. Yes, 'physical energy' is mysterious, but slowly and slowly, we are learning more about it. No problem, if you do not think I am a Buddha tathagata. Did I ask you to send a check to me?

You seem rather confused to me.

 

[YmirGF]

Yes, it took time.

I suppose for those of you who were looking for it. Then there are dimwits like me who were sitting having a pleasant conversation one moment and the next moment the universe opened up and I sat dazzled and bemused. I was bemused because at the moment of the event there was a "shock wave" that radiated outwards from the centre of my being. There is no other way to describe it. Everyone in the room turned my way with puzzled looks on their faces. I could see they had all felt something but was at a loss to say what I was experiencing at that moment. A couple were a little bit frightened as they had no idea what they had been in proximity to when it hit.

Perhaps it is easier for some and impossible for others (for want of the background knowledge)

That is pretty much my appraisal too, Aupmanyav. Fortunately I was able to "share" the experience with two others a year or two later. That helped me a lot as I knew, first hand, that it was no longer just me who was seeing reality from this strange vantage point. This was long before I decided to pursue the worlds religions for stories and accounts similar to what I was going through. You have to understand one oddity of my search though. I was definitely NOT looking for answers. I was simply looking for confirmation that it wasn't all in my mind. The first place I began to find echoes of my own experience was in the Bardo Thodol. (Evans-Wentz verson) Still have the copy on my bookshelf all these years later. It's very weird reading a book like that and understanding so much of it, especially at first glance. Then again, it's not like it was the first time I'd ever read the dang thing. *giggles* (In this lifetime, perhaps.)

Nothing scary in 'Brahman' and 'Ultimate Reality'. Not an ogre. It is 'what all exists' (or perhaps 'does not'. I do not know). It does not fry one till eternity. Actually it demolishes birth and death and makes one eternal (perhaps).

It is hard to give something a quality that is already an attribute of being. Sounds good in the glossy marketing brochures though. The ultimate reality, pun intended, is offering an immortal being everlasting life is not terribly meaningful. I think what might be painful for some is that some of us transcended these limited concepts a very long time ago and find them to be a hindrance to a greater understanding of a truly limitless reality and a revolutionary view of being itself.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You seem rather confused to me.

About what do you think I am confused?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The ultimate reality, pun intended, is offering an immortal being everlasting life is not terribly meaningful.

The being, the form, is not immortal. It is anatta and anicca as my Guru (Buddha) said. But (differing from my guru) what constitutes the being, the form, seems to be eternal. As I always maintain, I will look for confirmation from science. The ignorant attribute purpose to it which is not true. We give it our own meaning. 'Dependent origination' is not my line.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Only in your shallow DIY syncretism. In fact meditation has different purposes in different traditions and there are many methods. But I guess you wouldn't know that because you haven't bothered to talk to people practising in authentic traditions. So strong is your need to talk that you have never really listened.

All you do is bleat on about the "non-dual", what you are actually talking about is some experience of samadhi, which is no big thing.
All you do is bleat on about the "non-conceptual", which is ironic given that your head is stuffed full of concepts and beliefs.
You are stuck at the base camp, it is time to move on.

Most religious institutions and sects of all denominations in the world today are corrupted and have lost their way....hence the immoral and decadent state of the world....because most of humanity are ignorant of the true goal of religious practice....and are deceived into thinking that the conceptual mortal mind can find peace. It can never happen...ever....for Nirvana is not realized through any mental experience....but through the cessation of thought....

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Dragging the thread back on topic, how dare you! Much appreciated actually.

Could you explain briefly how Mermin came to this conclusion, it sounds intriguing.

Quantum physics/particle physics is generally counterfactually indefinite: things that exist as such when you "look" (i.e., measure or observe) aren't necessarily there when you don't. So, for example, in an argument concerning the (ontological) reality of a certain class particles in the standard model of particle physics, Robert Weingard states that even if we measure these particles this isn't evidence for their existence because "it does not follow that the particles we detect...would have been there if we had not made the measurement, or were there just before the measurement." In short, just because we see what we do doesn't mean what we see would be there if we hadn't.
Another example is the thought-experiment (now realized physically/empirically) given by Wheeler: Wheeler's delayed-choice experiment.
In the classic version of the double-slit experiment (where we "fire" electrons/photons/etc. ate a screen with two slits with some detecting film/screen behind it) the paradox is that if we try to detect them on e.g., film of some sort after passing through the double-slit screen, we will always detect wave-like entities, but if we try to detect them at the slits, we will always detect particle-like entities (I'm simplifying enormously here). An actual demonstration of this experiment in which individual electrons are detected as "waves" (i.e., they hit the detection screen in a manner impossible for particles, exhibiting a wave-like pattern) can be seen here:

In Wheeler's version, we let the photons or electrons or whatever pass through the double-slit screen, but we place two telescopes behind the detection screen aimed at the paths possible for anything passing through the two slits. Then, right before the photons/electrons/etc. hit the detection screen we remove it so that our telescopes can "see" these particles before they hit the screen as "waves". Only if we do this, the things that were about to be detected as landing in a pattern like that in the video are instead found in a totally different position, as if they had (like classical particles) travelled through one or the other slit.
In modern experiments, realizations of this Gedankenexperiment involve detecting a single system as either a wave or a particle depending upon how we choose to "look" at it, including the ability to continuously switch between whether we detect it as a "wave" or a "particle".
In quantum or particle physics, the nature of reality is determined by the manner in which we choose to look at it. Thus if nobody looks, it has no definite properties (the moon isn't there if nobody looks).

 

[YmirGF]

Most religious institutions and sects of all denominations in the world today are corrupted and have lost their way....hence the immoral and decadent state of the world....because most of humanity are ignorant of the true goal of religious practice....and are deceived into thinking that the conceptual mortal mind can find peace. It can never happen...ever....for Nirvana is not realized through any mental experience....but through the cessation of thought....

Thank goodness you are here to set us all straight, Ben D. We are so blessed to be in such an august presence.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I've observed that some people find this reality rather scary and start making up all kinds of things to cope, like "God", "Brahman", "Cosmic Consciousness", "Ultimate Reality". They cling to beliefs and clutch at metaphysical straws.

As Nietzsche said: "When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." But you can learn to develop a head for heights.

The irony is that Nietzsche and you have not yet realized the truth....the so called abyss and you are in fact one....the apparent separation comes from the conceptual mind. When the mind is still, the seer and the seen are not separate...peace that passes conceptual understand prevails... The reason that state Nietzsche speaks of raises fear and is scary to the seer, is that the ego fears extinction if the there is a merging with the apparent abyss it sees, and it is here that most aspirants stop and fear to stay the course....but those few with the heart to go on realize enlightenment...

 

[godnotgod]

The issues lie in the formulations of the underlying theories themselves, without black holes and without Kaku's issues with infinities.

I do believe that is how Kaku concluded.

 

[godnotgod]

Most religious institutions and sects of all denominations in the world today are corrupted and have lost their way....hence the immoral and decadent state of the world....because most of humanity are ignorant of the true goal of religious practice....and are deceived into thinking that the conceptual mortal mind can find peace. It can never happen...ever....for Nirvana is not realized through any mental experience....but through the cessation of thought....

These various religious institutions have lost touch with the meanings behind their own symbols, and only a return to mystical practices can re-establish those connections, and that re-connection can only occur via the cessation of thought.

"Yoga (ie; divine union) is the complete cessation of all of the activities of the mind"
Patanjali, The Yoga Sutras

 

[Rick O'Shez]

....but those few with the heart to go on realize enlightenment...

Exactly so. But you will have to stop clinging to all your beliefs and concepts, "God", "Brahman", "Cosmic Consciousness", "Ultimate Reality", all of it. Can you do it?

 

[psychoslice]

So what if everything is energy, so what if its cheese, does it matter, we are here, and that is all that's matter's.........lets stop all this crap and simply live, my god how hard is that ???>

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The being, the form, is not immortal. It is anatta and anicca as my Guru (Buddha) said. But (differing from my guru) what constitutes the being, the form, seems to be eternal. As I always maintain, I will look for confirmation from science. The ignorant attribute purpose to it which is not true. We give it our own meaning. 'Dependent origination' is not my line.

This is why you are confused. You are trying to reconcile atheist materialism, Hinduism and Buddhism. You say Buddha is your guru but you don't like his central teaching, and you still cling to cultural Hindu beliefs like Atman/Brahman, though you have had to redefine these beyond all recognition. And a part of you is very sceptical and thinks it's all nonsense anyway, and looks to science for the answers. Well, join the club!

There is nothing wrong with being sceptical and nothing wrong with being confused, but dressing this up as enlightenment is really rather weird.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So what if everything is energy, so what if its cheese, does it matter, we are here, and that is all that's matter's.........lets stop all this crap and simply live, my god how hard is that ???>

The moon is made of cheese...