If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[Ben Dhyan]

It can be.

Can being sympathetic also be neutral then?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Can being sympathetic also be neutral then?

Ok, I get what your saying. I meant neutral in the sense of having no care either way. Perhaps neutral wasn't the right word for it. You should know what I meant though.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ok, I get what your saying. I meant neutral in the sense of having no care either way. Perhaps neutral wasn't the right word for it. You should know what I meant though.

....

 

[atanu]

Attaching words prefixing consciousness, like "ultimate", "absolute", "perfect" or "transcendent", as if it mean something more than it is really is, is nothing more than pointless sophistry or wishful fantasy.

That is your view. And here, you seem to be saying that your view is the 'ULTIMATE'. With what imperious finality you declare "pointless sophistry wishful fantasy"? As if you know the ultimate reality.

Do you see that?

 

[godnotgod]

Personally, I think people believing in Consciousness, existing outside of brains and minds, is simply wishful thinking.

There are no real basis or evidences to support this transcendent consciousness, ultimate consciousnesses or perfect consciousness or whatever you want to call it.

Attaching words prefixing consciousness, like "ultimate", "absolute", "perfect" or "transcendent", as if it mean something more than it is really is, is nothing more than pointless sophistry or wishful fantasy.

What kind of conscious awareness do you suppose you are now using to determine the above?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Personally, I think people believing in Consciousness, existing outside of brains and minds, is simply wishful thinking.

There are no real basis or evidences to support this transcendent consciousness, ultimate consciousnesses or perfect consciousness or whatever you want to call it.

Attaching words prefixing consciousness, like "ultimate", "absolute", "perfect" or "transcendent", as if it mean something more than it is really is, is nothing more than pointless sophistry or wishful fantasy.

I don't really believe in consciousness at all...whether outside the brain or in it for that matter. It's all just complex interactions.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't really believe in consciousness at all...whether outside the brain or in it for that matter. It's all just complex interactions.

Just a bunch of chemical fizz somehow becoming self-aware, eh? Would you care to attempt to answer exactly how you think the material brain creates non-material self-awareness? I suppose now you're going to slither around in that chemical muck and tell me that self-awareness is just an illusion....

...of the chemical muck, that is.

 

[godnotgod]

Personally, I think people believing in Consciousness, existing outside of brains and minds, is simply wishful thinking.

For one, we have scientific proof that the brain is capable of non-local communication with other brains.

 

[`mud]

hey Ben,
At that point in the "Brahman"; the end of everything,
what would be left to cognize,
except Brahma , but isn't 'brahman' a state of 'nirvana' ?
To think an object and to cognize an object are by no means the same thing.
~
'mud

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I agree, they are all forms of attachment. The universe as a whole is unsympathetic and neutral. Absolute Joy is a concept, nothing more. Freedom from suffering is brought about by change. Either a change in that which is causing the suffering, or a change in the way in which one percieves the suffering. There is always a trade-off with everything. The trade off with being human and to know joy or happiness is to also know pain and sufferring. It is comforting to know that suffering is impermanent, but so are all things. We must learn to let go of everything.

Whilst I don't think the universe as a whole is unsympathetic and neutral (in quite the way you seem to be suggesting), I certainly agree with the importance of letting go of just about everything (I say just about everything because for me, the only things we shouldn't let go of is The God/dess and what The God/dess wants).

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Being attached to duality and seeing duality for what it is are two different things. If you are attached to the dual world, you are subject to swings of relative joy and relative suffering. You would fail to understand the nature of what is causing these states.

I quite agree.

But if you have transcended these dualities, (ie; Absolute Joy) you still are aware of them, but are no longer attached to them. You 'see things as they are', as you said, but just watch them come and go.

Again, agreed.

But others are still caught in the tangle of Identification who suffer, and because of your compassion, not only wish to come to their aid, but are capable of doing so, without becoming entangled in their duality. This is sometimes referred to as 'actionless activity'.

But is not the feeling of compassion, of wishing to come to their aid, rather than just letting it all happen without intervening, a form of attachment?

To say that 'I have a pretty dualistic way of seeing Reality' means that you are unwittingly doing so from a non-dual position. You can only know what is dual via knowing what is non-dual.

Not unwittingly. My view of Reality is both non-dual and dual.

 

[atanu]

hey Ben,
At that point in the "Brahman"; the end of everything,
what would be left to cognize,
except Brahma , but isn't 'brahman' a state of 'nirvana' ?
To think an object and to cognize an object are by no means the same thing.
~
'mud

Brahman will be left to cognise self and that you are (that is what scriptures say).

 

[atanu]

I don't really believe in consciousness at all...whether outside the brain or in it for that matter. It's all just complex interactions.

I wonder how you believe?

 

[gnostic]

I guess the consciousness of the cells in your body may likewise not be aware that there is consciousness outside of themselves....the very idea of having being in a greater being would seem preposterous... like father like son..

What kind of conscious awareness do you suppose you are now using to determine the above?

Consciousness is simply any awareness that our brains can perceive through one of any number of conduits, like our senses - sight, hearing, smell, touch.

Our subconscious state is one where we are in a dream state.

That is your view. And here, you seem to be saying that your view is the 'ULTIMATE'. With what imperious finality you declare "pointless sophistry wishful fantasy"? As if you know the ultimate reality.

Do you see that?

Adding word like "ultimate" is like adding "super" to whatever you want or wish for, eg superpower, super-strength, super-speed, super-intelligence, in another word, superhuman, except it is not real, and fall into the realm of supernatural or superstition.

Reality is reality. There are enough beauty and mystery in our world, in our solar system, in our universe, that we really don't need these make believe world...

...well except as entertainment in stories and myths. I mean I enjoy a great high fantasy stories of magic and adventures, but they are simply not something that I would believe or take too seriously.

Adding "ultimate" to reality is just you, avoiding reality, with some make-believe.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Just a bunch of chemical fizz somehow becoming self-aware, eh? Would you care to attempt to answer exactly how you think the material brain creates non-material self-awareness? I suppose now you're going to slither around in that chemical muck and tell me that self-awareness is just an illusion....

...of the chemical muck, that is.

What exactly do you think is going on when you are being "self-aware"? What is your body doing? Your body and your brain are interacting with the environment in a complex manner. At the same time, the environment is interacting with you, everything in unison. Self-awareness is an illusion since there is no independent "self" which rises to become self-aware. Everything is interdependent and co-arising, even our awareness. This has nothing to do with your Pure Consciousness fluff.

 

[godnotgod]

What exactly do you think is going on when you are being "self-aware"? What is your body doing? Your body and your brain are interacting with the environment in a complex manner. At the same time, the environment is interacting with you, everything in unison. Self-awareness is an illusion since there is no independent "self" which rises to become self-aware. Everything is interdependent and co-arising, even our awareness. This has nothing to do with your Pure Consciousness fluff.

Since there is no self to be self-aware, as per your logic, then the awareness, or consciousness, which is occurring must, by default, be an awareness that is not of the (illusory) self, since awareness cannot emanate from an illusion. At this point, what we have is awareness without a self that is aware. By definition, that awareness which is not of the illusory self can only be universal in nature. This Universal Consciousness is Pure Consciousness, AKA 'the Self'.

You still have not answered my question: what is the process by which the pure chemistry of the material brain creates non-material consciousness? Now, if you are going to insist that this 'consciousness' is an illusion, then what you are saying is that the brain is then creating pure illusion, and cannot be relied upon for the higher processes of Logic and Reason. In fact, then, nothing we are aware of via even our sensory perception is real.

What arises is the illusory self; the 'I', which is a self-created principle.
What does not arise is the authentic Self, which does not come and go, but is always present, before the creation of the illusory self called 'I'. That is Pure Consciousness, and it is that PC which is then used to subdue the activities of the brain, resulting in high output of Alpha Waves. None of this is possible via purely chemical reactions within the brain. You have it backwards: those very chemical reactions are the result of Consciousness, either via consciousness having stored the information to generate those reactions, or via consciousness acting in the present moment.

Your saying that awareness is an illusion is occurring because of the prior presence of the consciousness of the Self.

 

[godnotgod]

Consciousness is simply any awareness that our brains can perceive through one of any number of conduits, like our senses - sight, hearing, smell, touch.

.

What about the understanding of meaning or intent? Or the intutitive understanding as to the nature of things? What kind of consciousness is that? You do realize that there are levels of consciousness, yes?

 

[gnostic]

What about the understanding of meaning or intent? Or the intutitive understanding as to the nature of things? What kind of consciousness is that? You do realize that there are levels of consciousness, yes?

Sure there are number of levels of consciousness, but. I haven't seen a single one that are outside and independent of the brain.

And I have yet to see a Self that exist in the Cosmo.

This Pure Consciousness is nothing more than a fantasy or wishful thinking.

Can you show me any scientific paper or scientific evidence of the pure or ultimate consciousness?

 

[godnotgod]

But is not the feeling of compassion, of wishing to come to their aid, rather than just letting it all happen without intervening, a form of attachment?

Compassion comes out of non-attachment. Attachment is the cause of the delusion and suffering in the first place. Compassion is the desire for those who are attached to become unattached, but this desire is not of a lower order which is causing attachment; it is of a higher order which leads to freedom from suffering. This is the core of Buddhist thought.

The method of the sage is not to actively intervene, but simply to point, allowing the recipient to see for themselves both their current situation and the solution to their situation.

Not unwittingly. My view of Reality is both non-dual and dual.

The non-dual view allows one to see that the dual is, in reality, the non-dual, as in:

Actually, a true view of Reality is neither dual nor non-dual, as these together comprise a dual view.

 

[godnotgod]

Sure there are number of levels of consciousness, but. I have seen a single one that are outside and independent of the brain.

And I have yet to see a Self that exist in the Cosmo.

This Pure Consciousness is nothing more than a fantasy or wishful thinking.

Can you show me any scientific paper or scientific evidence of the pure or ultimate consciousness?

For starters, did you watch the video I posted at #2152?

The Cosmos IS the Self.

Where does your brain leave off and the 'outside world' begin?