If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[godnotgod]

No one was referring to malicious acts of violence or hatred as being correct actions or views. There is dualism and then there is extremism. I was not referring to extreme views. Besides, with regards to my previous post... When I said "it doesn't matter how we see things", I was referring in particular to those of us engaged in this discussion because I was fairly certain that none of us were going to become the next Adolf Hitler.

However, you are still saying that it is OK to see things any way you want to; that it doesn't matter. It does matter. Either you see things as they are, or as they are not. Please note that I am not saying not to be creative-minded, and entertain many ideas. But this is just play and possibility. Hitler wasn't playing around.

Dualistic thoughts can lead to extreme views, and extreme views to destructive actions, especially when such views are presented as doctrine. That is one reason I am a Zennist. There is no doctrine here, only pointing to the moon.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I never ridiculed anyone who was suffering; I ridicule ridiculous ideas set forth as reality. For example: Descartes 'cogito ergo sum', which states 'I think, therefore I am' is a ridiculous statement. If someone were to persist in this vein after demonstrating to him the flaw in the idea, then I might have to ridicule the author of such an idea. Now imagine Hitler is presenting his idea to you of racial superiority. At first, you would try to laugh it off, and then, attempt to show him the illogic in it, and ultimately, what would you think of him perse?

It should not bother you that I ridicule your ideas, since you should not be personally attached to them. You should figure out ways of defending them if you truly do think of them as being valid.

I have defended my ideas and I have presented more than enough facts to back up my ideas. I'll admit that my materialistic approach is no match for your "Absolute Truth". Science doesn't deal with absolute truths, it deals with evidence. Whether it bothers me or not and whether you think my views are ridiculous or not, you should be respectful towards others.

 

[godnotgod]

An example in Buddhism of ridiculing not only an idea, but the person who puts the idea forth:


Eshun's Departure


When Eshun, the Zen nun, was past sixty and about to leave this world, she asked some monks to pile up wood in the yard.

Seating herself firmly in the center of the funeral pyre, she had it set fire around the edges.

"O nun!" shouted one monk, "is it hot in there?"

"Such a matter would concern only a stupid person like yourself," answered Eshun.

The flames arose, and she passed away.

 

[Runewolf1973]

However, you are still saying that it is OK to see things any way you want to; that it doesn't matter. It does matter. Either you see things as they are, or as they are not. Please note that I am not saying not to be creative-minded, and entertain many ideas. But this is just play and possibility. Hitler wasn't playing around.

Dualistic thoughts can lead to extreme views, and extreme views to destructive actions, especially when such views are presented as doctrine. That is one reason I am a Zennist. There is no doctrine here, only pointing to the moon.

I am saying it is okay to be dualistic and see things however you want so long as your intentions are good.

Of couse dualistic thoughts can lead to destructive, patterns, the same way as a lion having sharp teeth can lead to an person being mauled. Sh*t happens. You can't save the world.

 

[Runewolf1973]

An example in Buddhism of ridiculing not only an idea, but the person who puts the idea forth:


Eshun's Departure


When Eshun, the Zen nun, was past sixty and about to leave this world, she asked some monks to pile up wood in the yard.

Seating herself firmly in the center of the funeral pyre, she had it set fire around the edges.

"O nun!" shouted one monk, "is it hot in there?"

"Such a matter would concern only a stupid person like yourself," answered Eshun.

The flames arose, and she passed away.

Not quite the same thing, but thanks anyway.

 

[godnotgod]

I have defended my ideas and I have presented more than enough facts to back up my ideas. I'll admit that my materialistic approach is no match for your "Absolute Truth". Science doesn't deal with absolute truths, it deals with evidence. Whether it bothers me or not and whether you think my views are ridiculous or not, you should be respectful towards others.

I am afraid I have my limits, because to continue on is only an insult to myself, and the deliberate perpetuation of nonsense when the flawed nature of the idea becomes apparent. With your idea of interaction as 'the fundamental reality', I can only try to point to its edges so you might see the flaws. In a nutshell, the primary flaw with your idea is that you are calling the manifestation of a deeper reality the 'fundamental reality', when it is just an appearance, albeit a very powerful set of appearances. That is the gripping power of maya. This should give you a taste of the monumental task the aspirant must undertake in overcoming delusion in order to awaken into Enlightenment. One beautiful metaphor which the Zen monk Phillipe Kapleau uses is the salmon, expending every last ounce of its energy and will to fight upstream to reach it's home breeding grounds, to die and become transformed back into the formless; the nothingness of Pure Being. That is the journey from the dual world of relative suffering and joy to that of Absolute Joy.

​

 

[godnotgod]

I am saying it is okay to be dualistic and see things however you want so long as your intentions are good.

Of couse dualistic thoughts can lead to destructive, patterns, the same way as a lion having sharp teeth can lead to an person being mauled. Sh*t happens. You can't save the world.

Buddhism is notorious for spitting into the wind. What do you think 'Mahayana' means? It means 'Big Boat'. Get EVERYONE into the boat to get to the other side.

What is it they say?: 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. No. If you knew anything about how monks are trained, you would see that every single moment of the day they are shifting their attention back to the present moment in the hopes that at last the moment of Enlightenment will arrive. This single thought dominates their every move and thought once a glimpse of the Infinite has occurred. Everything else pales in comparison.

Why is it OK to be dualistic when dualism is a state of delusion? It is the lot of the ordinary man who does not see things as they are, but lives instead in the fictional state of Identification. As one monk put it:

"From brilliancy I came;
to brilliancy I return.

What, then, is all of this?"

 

[godnotgod]

Not quite the same thing, but thanks anyway.

I fail to see any difference.

Runewolf, you are a good thinker, but don't be captivated by the glitter of your theory. Walk on.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I am afraid I have my limits, because to continue on is only an insult to myself, and the deliberate perpetuation of nonsense when the flawed nature of the idea becomes apparent. With your idea of interaction as 'the fundamental reality', I can only try to point to its edges so you might see the flaws. In a nutshell, the primary flaw with your idea is that you are calling the manifestation of a deeper reality the 'fundamental reality', when it is just an appearance, albeit a very powerful set of appearances. That is the gripping power of maya. This should give you a taste of the monumental task the aspirant must undertake in overcoming delusion in order to awaken into Enlightenment. One beautiful metaphor which the Zen monk Phillipe Kapleau uses is the salmon, expending every last ounce of its energy and will to fight upstream to reach it's home breeding grounds, to die and become transformed. That is the journey from the dual world of relative suffering and joy to that of Absolute Joy.

The biggest flaw in your view is the fact that there is ZERO evidence to support it. You try to squeeze quantum physics in to fit with your views, but I assure you they do not align. You are trying claim something as matter fact for which there is no evidence. Why not instead of pointing to the moon, you simply look at it yourself. As you do that, maybe others will be curious as to what it is you find so interesting and they will look at the moon too.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I fail to see any difference.

Runewolf, you are a good thinker, but don't be captivated by the glitter of your theory. Walk on.

I don't find your views very captivating. I find the universe and all it's interactions and changes captivating. How could I possibly be captivated by nothingness?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Buddhism is notorious for spitting into the wind. What do you think 'Mahayana' means? It means 'Big Boat'. Get EVERYONE into the boat to get to the other side.

What is it they say?: 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. No. If you knew anything about how monks are trained, you would see that every single moment of the day they are shifting their attention back to the present moment in the hopes that at last the moment of Enlightenment will arrive. This single thought dominates their every move and thought once a glimpse of the Infinite has occurred. Everything else pales in comparison.

Why is it OK to be dualistic when dualism is a state of delusion? It is the lot of the ordinary man who does not see things as they are, but lives instead in the fictional state of Identification. As one monk put it:

"From brilliancy I came;
to brilliancy I return.

What, then, is all of this?"

The grass still grows. The birds still chirp.

 

[godnotgod]

The grass still grows. The birds still chirp.

....against the thunderous silence of no-growing and no-chirping.

Do you know the story of the Sixth Zen Patriarch?

One day the Fifth Patriarch told his monks to express their wisdom in a poem. Whoever had true realization of his original nature (Buddha Nature) would be ordained the Sixth Patriarch. The head monk, Shen Hsiu, was the most learned, and wrote the following:

The body is the wisdom-tree,
The mind is a bright mirror in a stand;
Take care to wipe it all the time,
And allow no dust to cling.

The poem was praised, but The Fifth Patriarch knew that Shen Hsiu had not yet found his original nature, on the other hand, Hui Neng couldn't even write, so someone had to write down his poem, which read:

Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,
Nor the stand of a mirror bright.
Since all is empty from the beginning,
Where can the dust alight?

http://sped2work.tripod.com/huineng.html

Now do you see why I can only point to the moon?

 

[godnotgod]

The grass still grows. The birds still chirp.

But what is it?

 

[Runewolf1973]

But what is it?

It is the universe laughing.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You can prove this to yourself by ceasing all of the activities of the mind. What remains is universal consciousness, which is devoid of self; of any self-concept called 'I'. This is not a belief, as beliefs are based upon thought, while universal consciousness is based upon seeing, without thought.

Again you are muddling up and misprepresenting. There can be the meditative experience of stillness of mind. There can be cessation of self-view based on insight. Neither of these require your beliefs in "universal consciousness" and "cosmic consciousness".

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It should not bother you that I ridicule your ideas, since you should not be personally attached to them.

Interesting how YOU get so touchy when YOUR ideas are challenged.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If I find them ridiculous, how can I respect them?

It seems you find ANY idea which doesn't agree with yours to be ridiculous. Delusions of grandeur perhaps? Hmm.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Now do you see why I can only point to the moon?

Because you are trying to sell snake-oil and have to distract the audience with smoke and mirrors.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

For the record Buddhist teachings do NOT support GNG's new-age theories, which are actually a sort of pseudo-Hindu mish-mash mixed with pseudo-science, a Chopra-inspired fudge.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Eshun's Departure

I really wish you would stop hiding behind the Zen stuff, it's very dishonest of you. If you were being honest you would admit that you are a Chopra-inspired new-ager.