If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[atanu]

I've lost track of what you're really trying to argue about.

Yeah. I will again remind you. Read below.

... but we are always limited to the input from our physical senses, we can only see within the visible spectrum for example. So we are still working with the same input to the senses but understanding it in a different way, perhaps seeing connection instead of separateness, or transience instead of permanence.

There are all sorts of religious beliefs about something "beneath" or "beyond" the world that we actually observe, but I really don't see any evidence to support those beliefs. It mostly looks like wishful thinking to me, people need/want there to be something more.

Do you remember?

The central message of the Heart Sutra is that there is liberating INSIGHT into emptiness ( sunyata ). Do you agree with that?

I agree with that and I have never argued against this. Yet prajna is not something to be developed since there is no individual in reality that can develop it. On the contrary, on removal of illusion of being an individual, prajna (which is universal and not personal) is revealed as such.There is no individual mind to be evolved.

Spoiler: Arya Prajna-Paramita Carya Gatha

Stanza I
3. Listen, ye of the world, to that which is taught by the sages,
4. Which they received from the divine ones, concerning transcendental wisdom.

Stanza V
1. yasmin na prajna-vara-paramitopalabdhi
2. na ca bodhisattva-upalabdhi na citta bodhe
3. evam srunitva na ca muhyati ni sti traso
4. so bodhisattva carate sugatana prajnam

1. Know that absolute transcendental wisdom is not something to be developed;
2. There is no enlightened-being to be evolved, no mind of enlightenment.
3. Thus, when this is proclaimed, if not confused and not fearful,
4. Then shall the bodhisattva engage in the wisdom of the blissful ones.

Stanza VIII
1. vyupariksate punar ayam katar' esu prajna
2. kasmat kuto va imi sunyaka sarva-dharmah
3. vyupartksamanu na ca liyati nasti traso
4. asannu so bhavati bodhayi bodhisattvo

1. Enquiring whose is this wisdom and from whence,
2. He comes to see that all phenomena are empty (sunya).
3. Through that direct examination, without confusion or fearfulness,
4. The bodhisattva approaches unto enlightenment.

Stanza XXVII
1. yavanti loki parikirtita dharma-nama
2. sarves' upadu-samatikramu nirgamitva
3. a-mrtam ti jnanu paramam na tu yo parena
4. etartha prajna ayu paramiteti nama

1. All words belonging to worldly phenomena must be abandoned,
2. All that has arisen and been created must be transcended.
3. The immortal, supreme, incomparable gnosis is then acquired.
4. That is the sense in which we refer to wisdom as transcendental.

Stanza XXVIII
1. evam carantu na ya kanksati bodhisattvo
2. jnatavya so viharate sa-upaya-prajno
3. prakrti-asanta parijanayamana dharman
4. esa sa prajna-vara-paramitaya carya

1. Thus the bodhisattva engages, free of misunderstanding.
2. He abides in the gnosis of means and wisdom,
3. Knowing that all phenomena are utterly without a ground.
4. And that is the practice of the absolute transcendental wisdom!

Stanza XXIX
1. rupasmi yo na sthihate na ca vedanayam
2. samjnaya yo na sthihate na ca cetanayam
3. vijnani yo na sthihate sthitu dharmatayam
4. esa sa prajna-vara-paramitaya carya

1. On form he does not take a stand, nor on feelings,
2. On thought he does not take a stand, nor on volition.
3. On consciousness he does not take a stand: in ultimate reality alone he stands.
4. And that is the practice of the absolute transcendental wisdom!

Stanza XXXVII
1. rupam na prajna iti rupi na prajna
2. vijinana samjna api vedana cetana ca
3. na ca eti prajna iti tesa na prajna
4. akasa-dhatu-sama tasya na casti bhedah

1. Form is not wisdom, nor is wisdom found in form,
2. In consciousness, thoughts, feelings, nor in volition.
3. These are not wisdom and wisdom is not found in them.
4. Like the dimension of space, it is without break or division.

Stanza XXXVIII
1. arambanana prakrti sa an-anta-para
2. sattvana ya ca prakrti sa an-anta-para
3. akasa-dhatu-prakrti sa an-anta-para
4. prajnapi loka-vidunam sa an-anta-para

1. The ground of objective experience is unbounded,
2. And likewise the ground of all beings is unbounded.
3. Just as the dimension of space is unbounded,
4. So is the wisdom of the world-knowers unbounded.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Do you remember?

I was pointing out that any change is internal, and that we still get the same input through the sense bases, we can only see in the visible spectrum, awakened people don't start seeing quarks etc. Different subject, not relevant to this discussion.

On the contrary, on removal of illusion of being an individual, prajna (which is universal and not personal) is revealed as such.There is no individual mind to be evolved.

Are you suggesting that prajna is some sort of mystical essence which we merge with? The Heart Sutra certainly doesn't support that idea, and again this would be interpreting a Buddhist text through a Hindu lens. Such notions are not compatible with sunyata.

 

[atanu]

Are you suggesting that prajna is some sort of mystical essence which we merge with? ...

There is no one to merge. Who said anything of merging? Not me certainly. You are not paying attention.

You better stick with the following idea that our cognition-discernment being in the sense organs. Forget about Anuttara Citta -- the mind beyond the skandhas.

I agree. There can be changes of perception, seeing things in a different way, but we are always limited to the input from our physical senses, we can only see within the visible spectrum for example. So we are still working with the same input to the senses but understanding it in a different way, perhaps seeing connection instead of separateness, or transience instead of permanence.

There are all sorts of religious beliefs about something "beneath" or "beyond" the world that we actually observe, but I really don't see any evidence to support those beliefs. It mostly looks like wishful thinking to me, people need/want there to be something more.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

There is no one to merge. You are not paying attention.

I assure you that I am, and my point stands.

 

[atanu]

I assure you that I am, and my point stands.

Yes. It is rooted in senses. It will go with your senses.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes. It is rooted in senses. It will go with your senses.

What is this, a having the last word contest?

 

[atanu]

What is this, a having the last word contest?

No. I told you that I responded to you because while claiming to be a mediator and Buddhist you posted as below:

... but we are always limited to the input from our physical senses, we can only see within the visible spectrum for example. ...
There are all sorts of religious beliefs about something "beneath" or "beyond" the world that we actually observe, but I really don't see any evidence to support those beliefs. It mostly looks like wishful thinking to me, people need/want there to be something more.

1. I participated hoping that you will acknowledge that Prajnaparamita points to anuttara citta that functions beyond skandhas. and that your opinion (shown above in red) mightn't be correct, in light of Heart Sutra at least.

2. You asserted typically that there was no Supra mundane mind or Anuttara Chitta. I showed you the following

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mendis/wheel322.html#citta
Lokuttara cittas
The word lokuttara is derived from loka and uttara. In this context loka refers to the five aggregates; uttara means beyond. Thus lokuttara applies to those states of consciousness that transcend the world of mind and body, i.e., they are supra-mundane.

I hoped against hope that you will acknowledge this. But no.
...

Now you CAN have your last word. I have no further interest.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

... but we are always limited to the input from our physical senses, we can only see within the visible spectrum for example. ...

<sigh>
I just explained to you I was making a completely different point, not relevant here. This is obvious from what immediately follows: "...we can only see within the visible spectrum for example."

It looks like you're just scraping the bottom of the barrel in an attempt to score points. And I still think you are seeing the Heart Sutra through a Hindu lens. And to repeat, the Abidhamma stuff is simply not relevant to a discussion about the Heart Sutra, different system, different tradition. The quality of prajna ( wisdom ) is either present or not.

It's very telling that you haven't made a single quote from the Heart Sutra itself to support your arguments.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But the prism of atheism by definition will never accept the reality represented by the concept of atman......

Atman is a religious belief, not a "reality". Do not assume that inner experiences necessarily correlate with something "out there".
Same applies to Brahman, God, angels, etc etc.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Atman is a religious belief, not a "reality". Do not assume that inner experiences necessarily correlate with something "out there".
Same applies to Brahman, God, angels, etc etc.

Atman is not "out there"...but inner.. What is Nirvana to you...does it correlate with something inner or something "out there?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What is Nirvana to you...does it correlate with something inner or something "out there?

It's an inner transformation. Correlating it with something "out there" is just an assumption, a belief.

Correlating it with an inner essence like Atman is also just an assumption.

Atman, Brahman, God, they are all assumptions, all beliefs.

 

[godnotgod]

So now you're saying that "cosmic consciousness" is just the experience of non-duality. Not the Chopra-style new-age Brahman thingy you were going on about before.

.

But it IS what Chopra said.

 

[godnotgod]

Just offering my two cents...

That which you speak of is never out of reach and it lies beyond nothing. It is always right here, right now and ever-present. It is not that the rational mind can't reach it, rather the rational mind is just not likely to realize it was always firmly within one's grasp to begin with.

No, not at all. The rational mind is incapable of grasping it. The machinations of the rational mind must cease completely.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It's an inner transformation. Correlating it with something "out there" is just an assumption, a belief.

Correlating it with an inner essence like Atman is also just an assumption.

Atman, Brahman, God, they are all assumptions, all beliefs.

They may be assumptions to you...but I will attempt to dissuade you from your belief...

 

[godnotgod]

I didn't say anything different. Quieting the mind makes it more efficient and more relaxed but the brain becomes more aware. I showed you studies of the brain in this zen state you talk a lot about. Its the brain doing this enlightenment, zen connection to everything, nothing more nothing less.

No, the brain is simply responding to non-local consciousness. The brain cannot 'think' enlightenment into being. Enlightenment is not the result of thought; it is the realization of what is.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No, the brain is simply responding to non-local consciousness.

What exactly is "non-local consciousness"? Please give a succinct plain-English description, free from jargon and quote-mining.

It would also be helpful if you could provide succinct plain-English descriptions for "universal consciousness" and "cosmic consciousness", I have requested this several times.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But it IS what Chopra said.

It's just a muddle. The experience of non-duality does not require pseudo-religious explanations like "cosmic consciousness". Whatever that is!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

They may be assumptions to you...but I will attempt to dissuade you from your belief...

Well, bring on the evidence for your God, or whatever it is you believe in.

 

[atanu]

I don't know why people, instead of insulting others and their realisations, do not experience for themselves that which in Buddhist terminology is called anuttara citta, the consciousness beyond the skandhas.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I don't know why people, instead of insulting others and their realisations, do not experience for themselves that which in Buddhist terminology is called anuttara citta, the consciousness beyond the skandhas.

It's a discussion forum and people are going to disagree with you at times. No need for the melodrama.

https://suttacentral.net/define/anuttara
https://suttacentral.net/define/citta