If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[Rick O'Shez]

I've always wondered about 'what a "now" ' is ?
~
'mud

The present moment I assume.

 

[atanu]

I'm not sure what you mean. Wisdom is a quality of mind which develops, not some mystical thing which descends.
Anatta just means there is no permanent self or soul, no Atman. There is no "seer", just mindfulness.

Spiny, wisdom does not develop. Buddha nature is unborn and present. Through meditation the mind-sense made concepts are removed and sunyata revealed. That is Prajña Paramita. The primal mind space.

You know the meaning of 'para' in Sanskrit? It means 'the other shore' or 'transcendental'.

The mantra 'GATE, GATE, PARAGATE, PARASAMGATE, BODHI SVAHA' ( "go, go, go beyond, go thoroughly beyond, and establish yourself in enlightenment") points to 'para'

Please also refer to Heart Sutra and you will see that before attaining 'Prajña', Avalokitesvara has already gone beyond all senses and mind.

Anyway. You are free to believe as you believe. But in case you may wish to read about prajnparamita, I have included the links.

http://buddhasutra.com/files/prajna_paramita.htm

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/hui_neng2.html

Best.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

....wisdom does not develop. Buddha nature is unborn and present. Through meditation the mind-sense made concepts are removed and sunyata revealed. That is Prajña Paramita. The primal mind space.

Prajna-paramita means "perfection of wisdom", not "primal mind space", and it is clear from the Heart Sutra that this wisdom comprises insight into sunyata ( emptiness ). So it is about INSIGHT into the nature of phenomena.

It is not about "going beyond all senses and mind" as you say, it is simply about seeing the emptiness of the 5 skhandas. Your phrasing here makes me wonder if you are are confusing Buddhism with Advaita Vedanta, or viewing the Heart Sutra through the lens of your own tradition.

As the Heart Sutra begins:

"The Bodhisattva of Compassion,
When he meditated deeply,
Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering."

I recommend you spend some time with the source text, because commentaries can be contradictory and misleading ( and often long-winded! ).
http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf
I recited the Heart Sutra daily for many years, and have studied it extensively, so I am familiar with its meaning.

By the way, Buddha nature is the potential for enlightenment, not some sort of Atman substitute.

 

[atanu]

Prajna-paramita means "perfection of wisdom", not "primal mind space", and it is clear from the Heart Sutra that this wisdom comprises insight into sunyata ( emptiness ). So it is about INSIGHT into the nature of phenomena.

It is not about "going beyond all senses and mind" as you say, it is simply about seeing the emptiness of the 5 skhandas. Your phrasing here makes me wonder if you are are confusing Buddhism with Advaita Vedanta, or viewing the Heart Sutra through the lens of your own tradition.

As the Heart Sutra begins:

"The Bodhisattva of Compassion,
When he meditated deeply,
Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering."

I recommend you spend some time with the source text, because commentaries can be contradictory and misleading ( and often long-winded! ).
http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf
I recited the Heart Sutra daily for many years, and have studied it extensively, so I am familiar with its meaning.

By the way, Buddha nature is the potential for enlightenment, not some sort of Atman substitute.

I have not only read but I have contemplated and meditated on Heart Sutra. I have experienced sunyata and realised that Prajña is pure discernment without superimposition of any mental object.

Sir. It is beyond my understanding as to how when all skandhas and their consciousnesses are seen as empty, what still remains that makes Avilotesvara know the sunyata?

If you don't want to examine comments from masters regarding Prajña Paramita, it is okay.

We are simply on different planes at present and it seems that there is no point in reminding you that 'para' means 'beyond' and in this case it means beyond the mundane senses.

 

[atanu]

Spiny, wisdom does not develop. ....
Anyway. You are free to believe as you believe. But in case you may wish to read about prajnparamita, I have included the links.
http://buddhasutra.com/files/prajna_paramita.htm
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/hui_neng2.html
Best.

Those who may genuinely wish to see what Mahayana Buddhists understand by Prajnaparamita, I have pasted the most relevant portions from above two documents.

Spoiler: On the High Seat of "The Treasure of the Law"

On the High Seat of "The Treasure of the Law"
The Sutra of the 6 th Patriarch, Hui Neng
(Translated by A.F.Price and Wong Mou-Lam)
Chapter II. On Prajna

Learned Audience, the Wisdom of Enlightenment (Bodhiprajna) is inherent in every one of us. It is because of the delusion under which our mind works that we fail to realize it ourselves, and that we have to seek the advice and the guidance of enlightened ones before we can know our own Essence of Mind. You should know that so far as Buddha-nature is concerned, there is no difference between an enlightened man and an ignorant one. What makes the difference is that one realizes it, while the other is ignorant of it. Now, let me talk to you about Maha Prajnaparamita, so that each of you can attain wisdom.

Learned Audience, those who recite the word 'Prajna' the whole day long do not seem to know that Prajna is inherent in their own nature.....

......The word 'Mahaprajnaparamita' is Sanskrit, and means 'great wisdom to reach the opposite shore' (of the sea of existence).

Our very nature is Buddha, and apart from this nature there is no other Buddha.

What is Maha? It means 'great'. The capacity of the mind is as great as that of space. It is infinite, neither round nor square, neither great nor small, neither green nor yellow, neither red nor white, neither above nor below, neither long nor short, neither angry nor happy, neither right nor wrong, neither good nor evil, neither first nor last. All Buddha ksetras (lands) are as void as space.

Learned Audience, all Prajna comes from the Essence of Mind and not from an exterior source. Have no mistaken notion about that. This is called 'Self use of the True Nature'. Once the Tathata (Suchness, the Essence of Mind) is known, one will be free from delusion forever.

Prajna does not vary with different persons; what makes the difference is whether one's mind is enlightened or deluded. He who does not know his own Essence of Mind, and is under the delusion that Buddhahood can be attained by outward religious rites is called the slow-witted.
.....

Spoiler: The Prajña Paramita

The Prajña Paramita
[The Heart Sutra]
Translated by Tripitaka Master Hsuan Tsang of the Tang Dynasty
Commentary by Grand Master Tan Hsu

..The terms used are in Sanskrit: Prajna means wisdom, and Prajna paramita stands for wisdom acquired experientially, by means of intuitive insight, and perfected through cultivation to the level of transcendental knowledge; it is the original wisdom of the mind, or the True Mind. ....

Originally, Prajna manifested itself as intuitive wisdom in all sentient beings since time immemorial. That is called former wisdom or wisdom of life; but people became confused through grasping, and the True Mind fogged over by perverted views ....

In other words, the Prajna teaching is aimed to remove confusion, bring about recognition of one's own True Mind, and return to the truth. According to this doctrine the mind has three layers: First is the layer of the deluded mind; the second is the Prajna mind, and the third is the center, the heart, or the pivot of the Prajna mind, and such is also the relation of this sutra to the doctrine.

....the mind of Prajna is the true mind and the mind of worldlings is the deluded mind.

The mind of Prajna paramita Sutra is the True Mind, also referred to as the Essential Wisdom. Essential Wisdom we are speaking of is to be distinguished from an awareness of objects or environment and their use and value usually characterized as "knowledge" by worldliness......

The term "Paramita" is in Sanskrit and it means reaching the other shore. Prajna paramita or the Wonderful Wisdom, coursing like a boat, transports all sentient beings across the sea of defilement to the other shore that is Nirvana. ....

What is the real self? Our Original Nature is our real self. It depends on the body temporarily; the body is not different from a house. A house is completed and then gradually deteriorates; similarly, the body has birth and death and the part in between. Our True Nature (real self), on the other hand, has neither birth nor death. It is enduring and unchanging. The teaching of Real Self and of illusory ego is basic to all Buddha dharma. When it is understood, clinging is easily broken off.

What is mind? Mind is knowing without form. What is form? Form is shape without the capacity for knowing. Uninstructed worldlings view their physical body (form), actually a collection of elements, as their self or ego and therefore cannot leave the ocean of birth and death. Deeply confused about truth, they feel oppressed because of wrong views. The only correct way to put it is to say "this body is my body; the mind is my real self." The knowing consciousness is the master; the body, only a slave.

The Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva attained enlightenment by perceiving his Original Nature; he abandoned the duality inherent in subject and object,

 

[godnotgod]

So you are now saying there is ONLY the natural world? No "cosmic consciousness" and all that other stuff you keep talking about?
.

One more time:

"The Universe IS The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

"First there is a mountain;
then there is no mountain;
then there is"

What I said was that this Ordinary world is none other than the Miraculous itself; that Ordinary Mind is none other than Buddha-Mind.

 

[godnotgod]

It is beyond my understanding as to how when all skandhas and their consciousnesses are seen as empty, what still remains that makes Avilotesvara know the sunyata?

Yes, what I have been pointing to as well.

 

[idav]

One more time:

"The Universe IS The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

I've never had issue with this quote. That teaching says Absolute became the universe, there you say it IS the universe. When you start to describe something beyond is when I start to lose you. All of it being one means we are all a part of it, nothing that needs connection beyond natural means.

 

[atanu]

I've never had issue with this quote. That teaching says Absolute became the universe, there you say it IS the universe. When you start to describe something beyond is when I start to lose you. All of it being one means we are all a part of it, nothing that needs connection beyond natural means.

What is the limit of natural means and how to attain that highest limit? Do not get confused. In all eastern religions, the truth is arrived at through samadhi and not through sense perceptions. Removal of all sense perceptions alone can reveal the unchanged source.

One must come to know the nature of absolute, stripped of forms and names. For example, shape of an ornament does nothing to the nature of gold. So, one must know the gold and not just the shape. An ocean is all waves but a wave is not an ocean.

 

[idav]

What is the limit of natural means and how to attain that highest limit? Do not get confused. In all eastern religions, the truth is arrived at through samadhi and not through sense perceptions. Removal of all sense perceptions alone can reveal the unchanged source.

One must come to know the nature of absolute, stripped of forms and names. For example, shape of an ornament does nothing to the nature of gold. So, one must know the gold and not just the shape. An ocean is all waves but a wave is not an ocean.

I'm not going to pretend to know how it works completely but I am not sure complete cessation of perception is possible. Quieting the mind is not quite the same thing and plus meditative states actually show more brain activity not less.

Here is one example.

Recent studies have shown heightened activity in the anterior cingulate cortex, frontal cortex, and prefrontal cortex, specifically in the dorsal medial prefrontal area during Vipassana meditation.[7] Similarly, the cingulate cortex and frontal cortex areas were shown to have increased activity during Zen meditation.[8] Both studies comment on the possibility that these findings could indicate some state of heightened voluntary control over attention during mindfulness meditation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_activity_and_meditation

Here is another example. Notice the areas affected deal in attention and processing sensory.

Brain scans they conducted reveal that experienced meditators boasted increased thickness in parts of the brain that deal with attention and processing sensory input.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2006/02/meditation-found-to-increase-brain-size/

 

[godnotgod]

I've never had issue with this quote. That teaching says Absolute became the universe, there you say it IS the universe. When you start to describe something beyond is when I start to lose you. All of it being one means we are all a part of it, nothing that needs connection beyond natural means.

No. The Absolute did not become anything. All 'becoming' is only appearance. It is only 'as if' it became so:*

Brahman and Maya (edited)

Brahman has “become” the world through maya:

Brahman is absolutely real and formless. But then, there must be something with that Brahman to be able to ‘become’ this world of forms. This power is called maya. Maya is there because this is how Brahman is. We don’t ask, “Why is there maya?” because we don’t say that there is maya. We say that there is only Brahman. Brahman ‘plus something’ doesn’t exist at all.

The world is Brahman. If Brahman is limitless consciousness, without any particular form, then how could it become this world of forms? It did not. Consciousness continues to be, without any change. The gold has not become a chain. Only if it becomes a chain do I have to answer the question, “How did it become a chain?” Gold continues to be gold. Once you understand that clearly, then we can say Brahman has “become” the world through maya.

Everything becomes ‘as though’

An individual, due to not knowing this fact, is under the veil of maya. He is called the jva. Until he calls the bluff, inquires into the reality, he continues to be a jiva. And once he understands the meaning of the sentence 'you are that' (tat tvam asi) very thoroughly, he is free and whole. He is no longer bound by action (karma) etc. The whole performs no action; all action is ‘as though’**. Everything becomes ‘as though’. The whole remains the whole.

Swami Dayananda Saraswati

*as fluctuations in the Unified Field 'becomes' the (virtual) mass of the atom. It does not. Atoms remain as 'possibility'.

**'as though' = 'as if'

http://www.discovervedanta.com/downloads/articles/brahman-and-maya.pdf

When I say that the Ultimate Reality lies beyond Logic, Reason, and Analysis, I am saying it cannot be reached via the limited rational mind. But I am not saying it lies in some mysterious nebulous la la land 'out there'. It is forever and always right here, right now.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We are simply on different planes at present and it seems that there is no point in reminding you that 'para' means 'beyond' and in this case it means beyond the mundane senses.

You are clearly viewing a Buddhist text through a Hindu lens, and completely missing the point. You are trying to make prajna into Atman. Prajna is not an essence, it's a quality. I stand by what I said.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What is the limit of natural means and how to attain that highest limit? Do not get confused. In all eastern religions, the truth is arrived at through samadhi and not through sense perceptions. Removal of all sense perceptions alone can reveal the unchanged source.
One must come to know the nature of absolute, stripped of forms and names. For example, shape of an ornament does nothing to the nature of gold. So, one must know the gold and not just the shape. An ocean is all waves but a wave is not an ocean.

No, not in "all eastern religions", again you are imposing your Hindu understanding onto Buddhism. Buddhism does not have Atman or Brahman, it does not deal in essences and absolutes.
Samadhi and prajna are both qualities of mind, not essences.

In Buddhism samahdi is a means to an end, the end being insight. A still mind is a clear mind. The Buddhist approach is different from the Hindu approach, you seem to think they are the same but they are not.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

[C
"First there is a mountain;
then there is no mountain;
then there is"

So now you're posing as a Zennist again? No "cosmic consciousness" now?

Three posts up you were posing as a Hindu.

Weird.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If you don't want to examine comments from masters regarding Prajña Paramita, it is okay.

I have read all kinds of commentaries on the Heart Sutra, and you are completely missing the point. Prajna paramita is perfection of wisdom, and wisdom is a quality, not some Atman substitute as you want to make it. Like I said, read the source text and reflect on it's meaning. It's very clear actually.

"The Bodhisattva of Compassion,
When he meditated deeply,
Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering."

http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf

 

[godnotgod]

I'm not going to pretend to know how it works completely but I am not sure complete cessation of perception is possible. Quieting the mind is not quite the same thing and plus meditative states actually show more brain activity not less.

Here is one example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_activity_and_meditation

Here is another example. Notice the areas affected deal in attention and processing sensory.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2006/02/meditation-found-to-increase-brain-size/

You are misunderstanding the function of alpha waves. While there is greater alpha wave output during meditative states, it signifies a more relaxed, rather than a more excited state.

Alpha brain waves are associated with relaxed alertness, enhanced learning, creativity, peak performance, imagination/visualization and intuition.

ww.omharmonics.com/blog/alpha-brain-waves/

 

[godnotgod]

So now you're a Zennist again? No "cosmic consciousness" now?

First there is a mountain: that is to say, first, we see mountain in terms of the conceptual mind: conditioned awareness.

Then there is no mountain: then, all descriptions of mountain are washed away.

Then there is: but mountain remains, sans description as it actually is. subject and object have merged as one: cosmic consciousness.

 

[idav]

You are misunderstanding the function of alpha waves. While there is greater alpha wave output during meditative states, it signifies a more relaxed, rather than a more excited state.

I didn't say anything different. Quieting the mind makes it more efficient and more relaxed but the brain becomes more aware. I showed you studies of the brain in this zen state you talk a lot about. Its the brain doing this enlightenment, zen connection to everything, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Then there is: but mountain remains, sans description as it actually is. subject and object have merged as one: cosmic consciousness.[/COLOR]

So now you're saying that "cosmic consciousness" is just the experience of non-duality. Not the Chopra-style new-age Brahman thingy you were going on about before.

Moving the goalposts yet again.

 

[Runewolf1973]

When I say that the Ultimate Reality lies beyond Logic, Reason, and Analysis, I am saying it cannot be reached via the limited rational mind.

Just offering my two cents...

That which you speak of is never out of reach and it lies beyond nothing. It is always right here, right now and ever-present. It is not that the rational mind can't reach it, rather the rational mind is just not likely to realize it was always firmly within one's grasp to begin with.