If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[Rick O'Shez]

That which you speak of is never out of reach and it lies beyond nothing. It is always right here, right now and ever-present. It is not that the rational mind can't reach it, rather the rational mind is just not likely to realize it was always firmly within one's grasp to begin with.

The "answer" cannot be thought through here, it is a matter of direct insight based on close observation. That is why the proliferation of all these concepts like "cosmic consciousness" is entirely unproductive, it's just more mental baggage.

I think you are much closer to it than gNg actually, you clearly have an insight into interaction and relativity.

 

[idav]

No. The Absolute did not become anything. All 'becoming' is only appearance. It is only 'as if' it became so:*

Brahman and Maya (edited)

Brahman has “become” the world through maya:

Brahman is absolutely real and formless. But then, there must be something with that Brahman to be able to ‘become’ this world of forms. This power is called maya. Maya is there because this is how Brahman is. We don’t ask, “Why is there maya?” because we don’t say that there is maya. We say that there is only Brahman. Brahman ‘plus something’ doesn’t exist at all.

The world is Brahman. If Brahman is limitless consciousness, without any particular form, then how could it become this world of forms? It did not. Consciousness continues to be, without any change. The gold has not become a chain. Only if it becomes a chain do I have to answer the question, “How did it become a chain?” Gold continues to be gold. Once you understand that clearly, then we can say Brahman has “become” the world through maya.

Everything becomes ‘as though’

An individual, due to not knowing this fact, is under the veil of maya. He is called the jva. Until he calls the bluff, inquires into the reality, he continues to be a jiva. And once he understands the meaning of the sentence 'you are that' (tat tvam asi) very thoroughly, he is free and whole. He is no longer bound by action (karma) etc. The whole performs no action; all action is ‘as though’**. Everything becomes ‘as though’. The whole remains the whole.

Swami Dayananda Saraswati

*as fluctuations in the Unified Field 'becomes' the (virtual) mass of the atom. It does not. Atoms remain as 'possibility'.

**'as though' = 'as if'

http://www.discovervedanta.com/downloads/articles/brahman-and-maya.pdf

When I say that the Ultimate Reality lies beyond Logic, Reason, and Analysis, I am saying it cannot be reached via the limited rational mind. But I am not saying it lies in some mysterious nebulous la la land 'out there'. It is forever and always right here, right now.

How is it that the mind is limited if it can achieve enlightenment? Science has already shown us all this stuff so why do you say it can't be comprehended? Science actually showed us behind the curtain of space and time while religion simply alluded to the fact that there was a curtain to see behind. Then to top it off your using this same science that allowed us this perception and try to claim its incomprehensible without what? Without proper awakening, mindfulneess, or zen? No person is going to see beyond human capabilities, and no particular idea of reality will make a difference in our physical limitations.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How is it that the mind is limited if it can achieve enlightenment? Science has already shown us all this stuff so why do you say it can't be comprehended? Science actually showed us behind the curtain of space and time while religion simply alluded to the fact that there was a curtain to see behind. Then to top it off your using this same science that allowed us this perception and try to claim its incomprehensible without what? Without proper awakening, mindfulneess, or zen? No person is going to see beyond human capabilities, and no particular idea of reality will make a difference in our physical limitations.

Indeed. Awakening occurs in the mind, the input to the senses is the same as before. It's not like you develop x-ray vision or the ability to see quarks. Introducing QM into a discussion about awakening is nonsensical, pure pseudo-science, a pointless distraction.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Sir. It is beyond my understanding as to how when all skandhas and their consciousnesses are seen as empty, what still remains that makes Avilotesvara know the sunyata?

I have explained this several times but you are not listening. It is prajna, wisdom, insight, a quality of mind. It is not an essence like Atman. Can you not understand that Buddhism and Hinduism approach this differently? Until you see that you will continue to miss the point.

 

[atanu]

I have explained this several times but you are not listening. It is prajna, wisdom, insight, a quality of mind. It is not an essence like Atman. Can you not understand that Buddhism and Hinduism approach this differently? Until you see that you will continue to miss the point.

You have been harping on that for two years. Either you realise the prajna-infinite formless mind or at least pay heed to original teachers (and not to Wikipedia polluted by materialists).

I am not here to argue with you. I repeat the most important part from twi Mahayana teachers.

On the High Seat of "The Treasure of the Law"
The Sutra of the 6 th Patriarch, Hui Neng
(Translated by A.F.Price and Wong Mou-Lam)
Chapter II. On Prajna

Learned Audience, the Wisdom of Enlightenment (Bodhiprajna) is inherent in every one of us. ….
Our very nature is Buddha, and apart from this nature there is no other Buddha.
What is Maha? It means 'great'. The capacity of the mind is as great as that of space. It is infinite, neither round nor square, ….
Learned Audience, all Prajna comes from the Essence of Mind and not from an exterior source.
….

The Prajña Paramita
[The Heart Sutra]
Translated by Tripitaka Master Hsuan Tsang of the Tang Dynasty
Commentary by Grand Master Tan Hsu

…. it is the original wisdom of the mind, or the True Mind. ....
Originally, Prajna manifested itself as intuitive wisdom in all sentient beings since time immemorial. …

In other words, the Prajna teaching is aimed to remove confusion, bring about recognition of one's own True Mind, and return to the truth. According to this doctrine the mind has three layers: First is the layer of the deluded mind; the second is the Prajna mind, and the third is the center, the heart, or the pivot of the Prajna mind, and such is also the relation of this sutra to the doctrine.

....the mind of Prajna is the true mind and the mind of worldlings is the deluded mind.

The mind of Prajna paramita Sutra is the True Mind, also referred to as the Essential Wisdom. …
.....

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I am not here to argue with you.

You clearly are, but that's OK. As I said, you are viewing a Buddhist text through a Hindu lens and inevitably missing the point. For the umpteenth time, prajna, wisdom, is a quality of mind and not an essence. You are trying to make Buddha nature and prajna into Atman, this is just plain wrong.
You are twisting the meaning of a couple of commentaries and deliberately ignoring what the source text actually says.
Read it again, and take off your Hindu glasses while you do:

"The Bodhisattva of Compassion,
When he meditated deeply,
Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering."

http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf

 

[atanu]

...
"The Bodhisattva of Compassion,
When he meditated deeply,
Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering."

http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf

I have not used a single Hindu concept but I have cited actual Buddhist masters and if you wish I can cite more. You are not being truthful when you blame me of using Hindu concepts.

I asked you earlier "When skandhas are seen as empty wherefrom the cognition comes? "Only point I am making is that cognition is our very nature.

In other words, the Prajna teaching is aimed to remove confusion, bring about recognition of one's own True Mind, and return to the truth. According to this doctrine the mind has three layers: First is the layer of the deluded mind; the second is the Prajna mind, and the third is the center, the heart, or the pivot of the Prajna mind, and such is also the relation of this sutra to the doctrine.
...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

IAccording to this doctrine the mind has three layers: First is the layer of the deluded mind; the second is the Prajna mind, and the third is the center, the heart, or the pivot of the Prajna mind, and such is also the relation of this sutra to the doctrine.

There is no reference in the Heart Sutra to these three layers, and no reference to a "center". It's an invalid interpretation frankly, stuff which the source text simply does not support. It sounds more like Advaita Vedanta to me, trying to make prajna into a mystical essence or something.

The Bodhisattva DWELLS in prajna wisdom, so clearly it is a quality of mind and not a "layer" as claimed here. Why do you studiously ignore what the source text actually says? Are you incapable of forming your own view about it?

"So know that the Bodhisattva
Holding to nothing whatever,
But dwelling in Prajna wisdom,
Is freed of delusive hindrance,
Rid of the fear bred by it,
And reaches clearest Nirvana."

 

[godnotgod]

How is it that the mind is limited if it can achieve enlightenment?

It can't, because the mind is a self-created principle; it doesn't exist in actuality.

Enlightenment is not something that is 'achieved'; it is a state that already is. It is simply something that one realizes is already the case. It is a matter of consciousness, not of mind. As the yogi Patanjali put it: 'yoga is the cessation of all of the activities of the mind', and when that occurs, it is realized that 'mind' is an illusion, something Zen refers to as 'no-mind'.

Science has already shown us all this stuff so why do you say it can't be comprehended? Science actually showed us behind the curtain of space and time while religion simply alluded to the fact that there was a curtain to see behind. Then to top it off your using this same science that allowed us this perception and try to claim its incomprehensible without what? Without proper awakening, mindfulneess, or zen? No person is going to see beyond human capabilities, and no particular idea of reality will make a difference in our physical limitations.

What is meant by 'comprehension'? If you mean 'at what temperature will water boil?', you 'comprehend' the behavior of water when it is heated, but you still don't understand the nature of things, though you arrogantly think you do, with all that science stuffed into your head (i don't mean 'you' personally, here).

Space-Time is still only a concept, and I am not referring to religion, but to spirituality. The mystic has already not just seen behind the curtain, but seen behind Space and Time, and sees that they are illusions. Understand that even Holy Science is a conditioned kind of conscious awareness. The free mind that sees things as they are is an unconditioned awareness. It is unconditioned, unborn, uncaused awareness.

The whole business of Enlightenment is to see beyond ordinary human capabilities, because ordinary existence is fraught with perils due to ignorance. Enlightenment cures ignorance. Science makes you think your'e smarter, but in the end, you know less than when your journey began, even though you think you know quite a bit. The bottom line problem is that science places the cart ahead of the horse. We should get the spiritual experience first, and then science can be properly understood in its correct context of Reality. As it is , we are attempting to interpret Reality in terms of science, which will never work. The result is a dead, sterile 'understanding' of ourselves and the universe.

 

[godnotgod]

Indeed. Awakening occurs in the mind, the input to the senses is the same as before.

What is the change that occurs with awakening?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What is the change that occurs with awakening?

According to Buddhist teaching it is insight into transience and insubstantiality, emptiness. A radical shift in perception.

As the Heart Sutra describes:
"The Bodhisattva of Compassion,
When he meditated deeply,
Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering."


What is it according to your new-age theory? Perhaps for once you could give a clear succinct answer to the question, free of jargon, cliche and quote-mining. A straightforward plain English explanation which we can all understand. Come on, you know you can do it!

 

[atanu]

..
The Bodhisattva DWELLS in prajna wisdom, so clearly it is a quality of mind and not a "layer" as claimed here. .."

A quality does not cognise.

Like I have done, you should cite some venerable source that says that 'prajna' is merely a quality of mind. I have not claimed anything. I have cited Mahayana masters. You are playing with empty words without any actual realisation of Prajna. What does quality of mind mean? A quality does not COGNISE. Just as a shape of an ornament does not constitute gold.

Actually you are trying to say the same thing as I am saying, but you do not want to acknowledge that Prajna mind is not the mundane sensual mind. It is 'para', it is beyond the skandha based cognitions, although it is right here and now.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

A quality does not cognise.

Knowing is an innate quality of mind, and wisdom is the quality of CLEAR knowing. You still seem to be stuck with the idea of wisdom as an essence of some sort, like a knowing "thing" separate from the skandhas...like an Atman really. That is not what Buddhism teaches. You seem to be ignoring the fact that sunyata is an extension of anatta, there is no "seer" involved. Prajna is much more like sati, mindfulness. It's not like there is somebody BEING mindful, there is just mindfulness, again a quality of mind.

There is no such thing as "mundane mind" or "Prajna mind", there is just mind with or without prajna. Or you could say mind with or without ignorance, like sky with or without clouds.

You are reading stuff into the source text which is simply not there, and parroting a couple of obscure commentaries isn't going to cut it.

It's very strange how you keep ignoring what the Heart Sutra actually SAYS. Perhaps because it doesn't actually say what you would like it to say? The Heart Sutra is actually very straightforward if you read it without all the preconceptions and baggage.

Note in this final verse how Buddhas USE prajna wisdom, again clarifying that it is a quality of mind, not some kind of mystical essence.

"All Buddhas of past and present,
Buddhas of future time,
Using this Prajna wisdom,
Come to full and perfect vision."
http://www.fwbo-news.org/resources/heart_sutra.pdf

The meaning of the mantra is "Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond...", this refers to awakening.

 

[`mud]

I have to say......
You guys are looking through different prisms !
At the same light...that comes from beyond the 'absolute' !
Your 'truths' aren't really the absolute,
because of your prisms, you all see just the colors !
When trying to see the 'light' beyond the Light !
See the shadows on the walls, their colors are gone !

~
'mud

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I have to say......
You guys are looking through different prisms !
At the same light...that comes from beyond the 'absolute' !
Your 'truths' aren't really the absolute,
because of your prisms, you all see just the colors !
When trying to see the 'light' beyond the Light !
See the shadows on the walls, their colors are gone !

~
'mud

We're talking about different methods really. Buddhists and Hindus see it differently, there are different assumptions. Though why a Hindu is trying to tell a Buddhist how a Buddhist text should be interpreted is somewhat puzzling.

But to use your analogy I think you can say that beliefs are prisms, so the fewer beliefs the better. Particularly religious beliefs!

 

[atanu]

I agree. There can be changes of perception, seeing things in a different way, but we are always limited to the input from our physical senses, we can only see within the visible spectrum for example. So we are still working with the same input to the senses but understanding it in a different way, perhaps seeing connection instead of separateness, or transience instead of permanence.

There are all sorts of religious beliefs about something "beneath" or "beyond" the world that we actually observe, but I really don't see any evidence to support those beliefs. It mostly looks like wishful thinking to me, people need/want there to be something more.

Knowing is an innate quality of mind, and wisdom is the quality of CLEAR knowing. ....

Spiny, I honestly think that you are dishonest. Or you are shifting goal posts without knowing that.

All my comments are in reference to your celebrated "but we are always limited to the input from our physical senses,.....". It is shown above. Your understanding was and is that cognition is product of physical senses. But, Heart Sutra shows that cognition does not depend on form, on skandhas, or on vijnana.

Prajnana is not sensual knowing and does not depend on physical senses-skandhas

There is no such thing as "mundane mind" or "Prajna mind", there is just mind with or without prajna. Or you could say mind with or without ignorance, like sky with or without clouds.

There is. Study the Abhidhamma categories. There are mundane chittas and there are supra mundane chittas. Both have Cetasikas associated with them. Citta spans from mundane to supra mundane and in the supra mundane realm, Citta reveals itself as having quality of Prajna and then Prajna leads one to Nibbana, as shown in the line from Heart Sutra below.

"Ultimately Nirvana! All Buddhas of the three periods of time attain anuttarasamyaksambodhi through reliance on Prajna Paramita."

Kindly find out the meaning of anuttarasamyaksambodhi.

And please study more too:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mendis/wheel322.html#citta
Lokuttara cittas
The word lokuttara is derived from loka and uttara. In this context loka refers to the five aggregates; uttara means beyond. Thus lokuttara applies to those states of consciousness that transcend the world of mind and body, i.e., they are supra-mundane.
...

I wish that we actually experience and abide in Prajna.

 

[`mud]

And throw in some mirrors and shadows.....
the name of the ultimately superior singular core ?
In this world of subjective adjectives,
why not add some smoke ?
Majik
~
'mud

 

[atanu]

And throw in some mirrors and shadows.....
..

The senses are mirrors and shadows. Why do you need more?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Prajnana is not sensual knowing and does not depend on physical senses-skandhas

I didn't say that it was. I said that "Knowing is an innate quality of mind ( citta ), and wisdom ( prajna ) is the quality of clear knowing". I think that describes it correctly and succinctly, and I've lost track of what you're really trying to argue about.

I don't know why you're going on about Abhidamma and early Buddhist stuff in relation to a discussion of a Mahayana text like the Heart Sutra. It's a different system and you are comparing apples with oranges. Anuttarasamyaksambodhi means supreme enlightenment - but how is that relevant to the discussion?

It feels like you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, more concerned with scoring points than understanding the Heart Sutra.

The central message of the Heart Sutra is that there is liberating INSIGHT into emptiness ( sunyata ). Do you agree with that?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have to say......
You guys are looking through different prisms !
At the same light...that comes from beyond the 'absolute' !
Your 'truths' aren't really the absolute,
because of your prisms, you all see just the colors !
When trying to see the 'light' beyond the Light !
See the shadows on the walls, their colors are gone !

~
'mud

But the prism of atheism by definition will never accept the reality represented by the concept of atman....so Norman would be better to just out him self as the atheist he is and be done with it...