If God allows something then he approves of it, right?

[fullyveiled muslimah]

[

Where is the mention of the free will God has granted to mankind,the power and right to choose.
If I controlled my wife and told here when and how to do things,what to say and how to live that would be dictatorship.I would not be married to long
There is no free will for her to choose what she should do according to her personality and personal convictions,I end up forcing her and controlling her.
Love for my wife is allowing her to make choices based on her own fredom to choose.
If I had children I must instruct ,teach, discipline and allow them to make the choices based on the instruction I give them as a parent.
If I forced them to do and be what I wanted them to be they would be rebellious,angry children,I must instruct and discipline them but I can't force them to do anything ,they must learn to obey and submit to instruction or face the consequences.
God has given man free will,man inturn has disobeyed,rebelled,perverted,and become self reliant and indulgent in their behaviors and attitudes and therefore suffered the consequences.

Greed,pride,sexual immorality,lying,stealing,murder,hate,is not God's fault but the result of the choices man has madefrom their selfish indulgent lifestyles
When the world becomes chaotic and ruthless,death,sickness,tradgedy,pain and suffering is the outcome ,but God has made a way where man can change if they turn to God, but the real question is will they.[/quote]


I am in agreance with this. This will not only boil down to a question of free-will, but also a takes away the responsibility of one's own actions and decisions. It's the same as saying that a rapist, a thief, a murderer, a tyrant, a child abuser, can all not control themselves. Because they exist, God is liking these actions or at least condone them, because He could stop them. The thing is, can't we stop it? If we have a God-given instinct to determine right from wrong, and Allah has given the intellect, reason, rationale, and logical thought to us, then this makes us responsible.

Evil exist in the world because there are people who like it. There will always be an element of evil in the world because there will always be someone who wants it. If Allah has given us the tools to make a decision, and we fail to make a good one, then it is not Allah's fault. If I know that adultery is wrong then perhaps I should abstain from it. The same goes with any crime, if I know it to be wrong then maybe I should just not do it. I certainly have the intellect to understand the ramifications of the crime. Every sane person has the capacity to not commit evil as well as commit it.

To say that we cannnot choose these things is to say that we are willing to give up our mantle as intelligent life forms. We should then take up the title of computer chip driven robots. After all computers do not reason or think, they simply perform the functions programmed for it to do.

 

[sojourner]

From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

There's a faulty conclusion being reached here. While God is God -- omipotent and omniscient -- and while God created the universe according to God's design, according to Abrahamic theology, one of the things God created for humanity was the ability to choose. Above all, God desires a love relationship with us. How can a love relationship be built upon coersion, compulsion, or force? A true love relationship can only be entered into by choice. When the paradigm for choice and freedom was set in motion, it also included potential for evil. While God doesn't want evil to exist, it does by human design. If God "did away" with all evil, God would be stripping us of the ability to choose.

 

[Peace]

Where is the mention of the free will God has granted to mankind,the power and right to choose.
If I controlled my wife and told here when and how to do things,what to say and how to live that would be dictatorship.I would not be married to long
There is no free will for her to choose what she should do according to her personality and personal convictions,I end up forcing her and controlling her.
Love for my wife is allowing her to make choices based on her own fredom to choose.
If I had children I must instruct ,teach, discipline and allow them to make the choices based on the instruction I give them as a parent.
If I forced them to do and be what I wanted them to be they would be rebellious,angry children,I must instruct and discipline them but I can't force them to do anything ,they must learn to obey and submit to instruction or face the consequences.
God has given man free will,man inturn has disobeyed,rebelled,perverted,and become self reliant and indulgent in their behaviors and attitudes and therefore suffered the consequences.

Greed,pride,sexual immorality,lying,stealing,murder,hate,is not God's fault but the result of the choices man has madefrom their selfish indulgent lifestyles
When the world becomes chaotic and ruthless,death,sickness,tradgedy,pain and suffering is the outcome ,but God has made a way where man can change if they turn to God, but the real question is will they.

Well said roli :clap
Frubals

Peace

 

[Faint]

God promises judgment to all who do evil.

Does that include himself...the source of all evil?

 

[sojourner]

How does God "do evil?"

 

[Faint]

"If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all."

I think ethically, morally, theologically speaking that is the silliest notion I have ever heard.

Regards,
Scott

Would you care to explain why? If you're going to declare a notion silly I expect you to provide one that is more plausible.

 

[Faint]

Parents often allow their children to do things that are not the best for them, and may even hurt them, in order for their children to learn a lesson. The fact that a parent allows a child to make a bad choice does not mean the parent approves or is obligated to step in and make it stop. The same principle applies to God and mankind.

You're contradicting yourself. The parent "allows" but doesn't approve of allowing? Does the parent then have no choice in the matter? How does this apply to a God who can do anything he wants? OF COURSE the parent approves of what he/she allows! If your kid is going to steal a candy bar and you the parent let them do it so that they'll learn a lesson when they get caught, then you are in fact condoning their theft in the first place as you want them to steal the candy so they will learn a lesson. It's very simple.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

This is built around a false dillemma in my mind. But first, lol, great dig at David Blaine. That was creative and amusing.

1. There assumption that God allows evil does not mean that God is pleased by evil, or that he wants it.

2. In the process of achieving the ultimate good, it is possible to allow for evil. This is the free-will argument. If freewill is the ultimate good in the eyes of God, then evil is a necessary potencial. Thus, it is possible that God feels a great amount of pain and suffering over the existence of evil, not from a self-righteous view of his own will, but because God is Love and desires only good things for us.

3. If God choose that for good to be valuable, it must be choosen freely, then evil is simply the lack of that good. It is not an addition, but a subtraction from God's intent, but His intent being what it is, allows for that subtraction.

4. Thus, the greatest good is preserved and includes evil.

 

[Faint]

Where is the mention of the free will God has granted to mankind,the power and right to choose...

Okay, let's talk about free will then....what matters is that humans suffer, and God is letting them suffer. If anything, free will-causing-suffering only supports my arguement since free will supposedly is granted by God as part of our design. He would have known we would do bad things, yet he still allowed us to have the ability to do them...and thus he approved of giving us this power, right?

Greed,pride,sexual immorality,lying,stealing,murder,hate,is not God's fault but the result of the choices man has madefrom their selfish indulgent lifestyles
When the world becomes chaotic and ruthless,death,sickness,tradgedy,pain and suffering is the outcome ,but God has made a way where man can change if they turn to God, but the real question is will they.

It absolutely amazes me that someone can think this way...such a guilt trip. So all the evil in the world is the fault of man? Who supposedly created man and his capacity for these evil deeds?

Look, either God can erase all suffering from the world or he can't. If he's ALL-POWERFUL then he can certainly find a way to make suffering not exist while letting humans keep their freewill. He does not, so we must assume that either he is
1) not all-powerful, or
2) wants us to suffer for some greater good.

Which is it?

Also, consider the following:

*God has a reason to allow evil to exist that ultimately will result in a greater good. This could be called "the ends justify the means", but it also suggests that God is not "all-powerful" as traditionally believed. His/her power is limited by the inability to produce good ends without going through evil means.

 

[Faint]

That's not even true for humans; why should it be true for god?

We tolerate things, why shouldn't god?

What you tolerate you are in essence allowing/approving of.

 

[Faint]

A few posters have tended to your way of looking at things, but I think your 'view of it' is a great analogy.

Booko's "parental God" view is like the Tolkien quote, "the burned hand teaches best" which I don't necessarily disagree with. But the point is God seems to be allowing the hand to be burned and thus he sees this as necessary AND therefore approves of it.

 

[darkpenguin]

From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

didn't you know, david Blaine is jesus!:yes:

 

[Faint]

There's a faulty conclusion being reached here. While God is God -- omipotent and omniscient -- and while God created the universe according to God's design, according to Abrahamic theology, one of the things God created for humanity was the ability to choose. Above all, God desires a love relationship with us. How can a love relationship be built upon coersion, compulsion, or force? A true love relationship can only be entered into by choice. When the paradigm for choice and freedom was set in motion, it also included potential for evil. While God doesn't want evil to exist, it does by human design. If God "did away" with all evil, God would be stripping us of the ability to choose.

I address this with bartdanr's quote in post #30. Basically God is not all-powerful if he cannot create us with an ability to genuinely love him and no potential for evil/suffering.

But anyway...Newsflash! The Bible is filled with God's attempt to coerce our love...if you don't go for Him, you are threatened with death, or hell, or God's wrath, etc.

 

[Faint]

How does God "do evil?"

That's another thread. Start one and I'll fill it with examples.

 

[Faint]

4. Thus, the greatest good is preserved and includes evil.

So, ultimately as God wants the greatest good for humankind (as you seem to imply) he wants evil as it is necessary. Though he may not like evil, he lets it happen...like someone telling a white lie. You may not want to tell a lie, but you approve of it being spoken as it will result in some good. If you did not approve of the lie, you would have found something else to say.

Now consider if you had infinite options from infinite knowledge. If the white lie is still the best option out of infinite choices to say otherwise...we must assume that you approve of telling the lie. The same goes for evil, bad things, and David Blaine. God in his infinite wisdom has let these happen. We must assume he wants them to.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

So, ultimately as God wants the greatest good for humankind (as you seem to imply) he wants evil as it is necessary. Though he may not like evil, he lets it happen...like someone telling a white lie. You may not want to tell a lie, but you approve of it being spoken as it will result in some good. If you did not approve of the lie, you would have found something else to say.

Now consider if you had infinite options from infinite knowledge. If the white lie is still the best option out of infinite choices to say otherwise...we must assume that you approve of telling the lie. The same goes for evil, bad things, and David Blaine. God in his infinite wisdom has let these happen. We must assume he wants them to.

No, we do not have to assume he wants them to. All we must do is reject that God is dealing with an infinate number of possibilities; which is easy to do by rejecting contradictions.

 

[sojourner]

I address this with bartdanr's quote in post #30. Basically God is not all-powerful if he cannot create us with an ability to genuinely love him and no potential for evil/suffering.

But anyway...Newsflash! The Bible is filled with God's attempt to coerce our love...if you don't go for Him, you are threatened with death, or hell, or God's wrath, etc.

Love involves choice. Choice demands at least two options.

Where does God coerce love? God does not punish as we deserve. God turns from God's wrath. God offered himself up for us, so that we might have life. That's the message of the Bible.

 

[Willamena]

What you tolerate you are in essence allowing/approving of.

I disagree --allowing, yes, but approval is not included in that concept.

 

[GiveCharity]

I allow my children to make mistakes, but it does not follow that I approve of their mistakes.

I just recognize that if I allow them to screw up, they'll learn not to do it again, and the lesson will stick better.

Life is a test. Those who choose to avoid the evil and wrong and submit thier will to God will have passed the test. That is the Islamic view.

 

[McBell]

Love involves choice. Choice demands at least two options.

Where does God coerce love? God does not punish as we deserve. God turns from God's wrath. God offered himself up for us, so that we might have life. That's the message of the Bible.

"love me unconditionally or spend all eternity is hell" is an ultimatum, not a choice.

 

[Faint]

"love me unconditionally or spend all eternity is hell" is an ultimatum, not a choice.

Exactly.

No, we do not have to assume he wants them to. All we must do is reject that God is dealing with an infinate number of possibilities; which is easy to do by rejecting contradictions.

So God does not have infinite possibilities? He is not all-powerful?

I disagree --allowing, yes, but approval is not included in that concept.

Consider this: you're the U.S. Government. You tolerate religious freedom. You see a religion like Scientology and think to your collective self..."this religion is silly. I don't like it...but I will allow it to operate in my country as allowing the freedom to choose who to worship--even L.Ron Hubbard--is necessary for the country's greater good." You therefore, by not acting to shut down or remove the religion, it...you are approving of its continued existence.

By contrast, let's say you (still the U.S. Government) hear about a little group of people in Waco, Texas who have a religion where their leader David Koresh thinks it's cool for guys to have sex with underaged girls. Obviously you as an agency do not approve of this religion (i.e. you do not see reason tolerate it), so you send in federal troops to shut it down. This is an example disapproval and action taken to show disapproval.

God supposedly has the power to shut down evil. He hasn't. It seems clear that he is tolerating it, and as I keep saying...approves. See?