If God allows something then he approves of it, right?

[Faint]

Where does it state that YAH is "human-friendly"?

So he doesn't love any of us then? Why would you want to worship/believe in a God who is not concerned with our well-being?

Whose definition of reasonable morality are we bound to with your question? Yours?

It's a start.

Whose definition of the word "tyrant" are we using?

The standard English definition.

Whose definition of the word "morality" are we using? And as I said....... "Only Elohim creates life and all life is His."

Once again, let's go with the standard English definition.

By whose authority am I made to look at what my responsibilities entail?

As a (hypothetical) parent, I would say you have a responsibility to your child. This is part of human morality.

That would profit nothing. All the thoughts and feelings of man are nothing but vanity. They are all worthless. Nothing matters except the will of YAH our Elohim.

What a healthy outlook on life! "We are worthless". Have fun with that view. If nothing matters why are you trying so hard to convince me otherwise?

Ohhhhhhh...... does it hurt. Don't "faint".

Heh..."faint". Clever.
No, it's just annoying to find people who do not take the time to create an arguement independent of Biblical verse. It makes me suspect that they don't actually think about what they've read, but just accept it with blind faith.

He did.

Where? See his latest post...still nothing.

Is sin evil? Is it not written that the punishment for sin is death? Did we not already go over the choices of either a blessing or a curse, life or death? Again it is o.k. It really isn't meant for all to get it.

*Sigh* This is like trying to explain Don Quixote to a 1st grader.

Am I supposed to answer this as a man or under the premise that I was the Creator?

As a human of course. I already know your God's view on the matter.

Are you sure that your not just upset that you was given life to begin with now that you have found out that it came with some attachments?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Please rephrase the question.

 

[Faint]

Your welcome.

He knows the outcomes, just not which outcome you will choose.

That sounds about right.

I see. Then we're talking about different Gods. Yours is apparently not omniscient like some other Christians seem to think he is. Yours does not possess "infinite awareness" or "complete knowledge". I'm talking about one who supposedly is all-knowing.

(Of course your response could lead to the question for another thread...if God is not all-knowing, what else does he not know about AND how can anything he "says" be held as absolute truth?)

 

[Faint]

Faint,

What God wants is for us to CHOOSE, and live with the consequences of the choice.

Regards,
Scott

THAT'S your response? That's what you came up with? Let me repeat my previous post to you:

Your logical statement makes no logical sense.

Ok. Fasten your seat belt.

God is indeed All-Powerful.

Ok. Hold that thought...

The power of creation was His, not man's. If man is capable of that power let's see somebody, anybody create a single atom of hydrogen out of NOTHING. He can't use bits and pieces of sub-atmoic particles from something else, he has to do it out of thin air--oooops!!!!! No he can't do it out of thin air because that would be something from something else, not something from nothing.

This turned out to be very useful. See the last response below...

Now if God is all-powerful does that detract so much as an iota of substance from any one man's responsibility for his own actions?

Pretty much because...
According to you God created everyone/everything...this also entails creating the potential of everyone/everything AND entails that if God is all-knowing he would have foreseen every possible result/decision that his design (humans and the universe in general) would make. Free will or not, God would have forseen all murders, rapes, child molestations, natural disasters, David Blaines, etc. This would be like Ford releasing a vehicle called the Pinto that they KNOW has a gas tank near the rear bumper that is likely to explode on impact and burn all the passengers alive (oh, wait...they actually did release those vehicles) but still choosing to release it to the unsuspecting public. The point is that Ford (and the God apparently since he's all-knowing) REALIZED there is a flaw in the design, but Ford (and God) still decided to put their respective designs into mass production anyway. The only "logical" (haha) conclusion to the idea that an all-powerful being created the universe is that the state of everything (even free will and its results) is part of his plan. There is no one who can ultimately take responsiblity for anything except for the one who supposedly created it all (i.e. God).

Defend that position--after all you asserted it as true. Prove it!!!!! Prove that I believe it before you say that someone who believes in the over-wheening might of God, must believe that anything that exists exists because God wills it.

Did. No what?

All of creation is good. Man creates evil by his own choice and bears responsibility for that choice before God and the rest of humanity.

Are you saying here or trying to imply that man is independent of creation? As you said with your hydrogen atom analogy...man cannot create "something from nothing". Anything we try to make must come from God's creation, RIGHT? So then, how does man create evil out of nothing? (Oooooo...nice one Faint!)

 

[Popeyesays]

"Are you saying here or trying to imply that man is independent of creation? As you said with your hydrogen atom analogy...man cannot create "something from nothing". Anything we try to make must come from God's creation, RIGHT? So then, how does man create evil out of nothing? (Oooooo...nice one Faint!)"

This is your stinger?

God created man to choose. Man chooses evile, it didn't come from nothing, it came from the nature of man which is to choose. AND BEAR RESPONSIBILITY for the choice.

I don't know about you, but I am not a puppet.

Regards,
Scott

 

[wmam]

So he doesn't love any of us then?

Why would he?
I mean really. We have done nothing but cause trouble and rebel against His wishes ever since He created us. But he still suffers us to do our best and to search Him out to do His will so we might obtain eternal life.

Why would you want to worship/believe in a God who is not concerned with our well-being?

Wouldn't one need be a swell-being to deserve one wishing "well-being"?

It's a start.

Then it would have to do with your will and not that of the one who created you.

The standard English definition.

As well as.......

Once again, let's go with the standard English definition.

So are we sure that the Creator of all things, good and bad, uses that for definitions?

As a (hypothetical) parent, I would say you have a responsibility to your child. This is part of human morality.

That may be true but YAH isn't human and how can one fathom the responsibility of that which created all things?

We have to remember that it isn't about that which is created but that of the Creator.

What a healthy outlook on life!

I believe so. This life is only temporary. I look to that which is forever.

"We are worthless". Have fun with that view.

Yep! Just a bunch of filthy mud pies with two eyes and a pie hole. LOL

If nothing matters why are you trying so hard to convince me otherwise?

I'm not trying to convince you.

What would ever be the profit of that? Just to say I won a debate? LOL... please.

Heh..."faint". Clever.

Why thank you so very, very much. Your so kind.

No, it's just annoying to find people who do not take the time to create an arguement independent of Biblical verse. It makes me suspect that they don't actually think about what they've read, but just accept it with blind faith.

Of a mustard seed He said.

If it annoys you then maybe you should find other places to debate other than a place called "Religious Forums", under topics and threads found with-in "Religious Education / Religious Topics / Religious Debates" . LOL

Where? See his latest post...still nothing.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moshe', I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of Elohim that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might shew my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 You wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art you that repliest against Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast you made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if Elohim, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Hebrews only, but also of the Gentiles?

*Sigh* This is like trying to explain Don Quixote to a 1st grader.

See Dick run. See Jane Run. See Spot run after Dick and Jane.

As a human of course. I already know your God's view on the matter.

See that is easy because we would know how man views it but most men haven't a clue how YAH our Elohim views it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Please rephrase the question.

*Sigh* This is like trying to explain Don Quixote to a 1st grader.

 

[Popeyesays]

wmam said:
Why would he?
I mean really. We have done nothing but cause trouble and rebel against His wishes ever since He created us. But he still suffers us to do our best and to search Him out to do His will so we might obtain eternal life.
------------------------

God may administer perfect JUSTICE, but He also administers perfect MERCY. So we may be trepidatious about judgement, but we should remember that all mercy comes from God as well.

"5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

"48. O SON OF MAN!
For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.
49. O SON OF MAN!
The true lover yearneth for tribulation even as doth the rebel for forgiveness and the sinful for mercy.
50. O SON OF MAN!
If adversity befall thee not in My path, how canst thou walk in the ways of them that are content with My pleasure? If trials afflict thee not in thy longing to meet Me, how wilt thou attain the light in thy love for My beauty?
51. O SON OF MAN!
My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest become an eternal light and an immortal spirit. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.
52. O SON OF MAN!
Should prosperity befall thee, rejoice not, and should abasement come upon thee, grieve not, for both shall pass away and be no more."
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Regards,
Scott

 

[wmam]

wmam said:
Why would he?
I mean really. We have done nothing but cause trouble and rebel against His wishes ever since He created us. But he still suffers us to do our best and to search Him out to do His will so we might obtain eternal life.
------------------------

God may administer perfect JUSTICE, but He also administers perfect MERCY. So we may be trepidatious about judgement, but we should remember that all mercy comes from God as well.

"5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

"48. O SON OF MAN!
For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.
49. O SON OF MAN!
The true lover yearneth for tribulation even as doth the rebel for forgiveness and the sinful for mercy.
50. O SON OF MAN!
If adversity befall thee not in My path, how canst thou walk in the ways of them that are content with My pleasure? If trials afflict thee not in thy longing to meet Me, how wilt thou attain the light in thy love for My beauty?
51. O SON OF MAN!
My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest become an eternal light and an immortal spirit. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.
52. O SON OF MAN!
Should prosperity befall thee, rejoice not, and should abasement come upon thee, grieve not, for both shall pass away and be no more."
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Regards,
Scott

Thats the "But he still suffers us to do our best and to search Him out to do His will so we might obtain eternal life." part.

 

[Ulver]

I don't know about you, but I am not a puppet.

Right. So It is impossible to know if you are or are not. Yet you believe you are not.

I wouldn't say we're puppets. I'd say we're marbles or dominos. Just with far greater abilities to influence and cause reaction. The whole universe is a chain reaction.

Note that one can certainly still believe in a "God" in this situation. It's just God then becomes the one we see as the Clock Maker who stands at a distance or as the Pantheistic Being which is embodied within all of creation/destruction.

 

[Popeyesays]

Right. So It is impossible to know if you are or are not. Yet you believe you are not.

I wouldn't say we're puppets. I'd say we're marbles or dominos. Just with far greater abilities to influence and cause reaction. The whole universe is a chain reaction.

Note that one can certainly still believe in a "God" in this situation. It's just God then becomes the one we see as the Clock Maker who stands at a distance or as the Pantheistic Being which is embodied within all of creation/destruction.

Argumentatively, I agree. But I don't see God as Clockmaker. Againa 'clockmaker requires 'something' to work with, even if it's wood and a pocketknifee. Where did the wood and the pocketknife come from? Where did the chain reaction of cause and effect begin? We can't KNOW from our vantage point but reasonably a Primal Cause must exist.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Willamena]

I wouldn't say we're puppets. I'd say we're marbles or dominos. Just with far greater abilities to influence and cause reaction. The whole universe is a chain reaction.

If this "far greater" ability exists at all, doesn't its very existence eliminate the "marble/domino" theory?

 

[Quiddity]

I see. Then we're talking about different Gods. Yours is apparently not omniscient like some other Christians seem to think he is. Yours does not possess "infinite awareness" or "complete knowledge". I'm talking about one who supposedly is all-knowing.

(Of course your response could lead to the question for another thread...if God is not all-knowing, what else does he not know about AND how can anything he "says" be held as absolute truth?)

I think you need to go back and read my Matrix post (#55). God essentially won't do anything against his Nature. It's like asking "can God sin?" I think it is you who may in fact be misunderstanding what was meant by omniscience. If you wish to educate yourself about the attributes of God I would recommend this:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

Enjoy.

 

[Popeyesays]

Attribtes of God from a Baha`i perspective: http://teach.valdosta.edu/whuitt/religion/bahai/monthly/names.pdf

Regards,
Scott

 

[adilrockstar]

#1.So God has either allowed, or was beaten by, Satan? Wow! Thats a new spin on religion!

#3.Why on earth did God allow Satan to rule on this earth? And surely that is not because of the free will choices of us mere humans? We could not possibly have anything to do with that, as God says in the Bible that there can be no communication from the dead, am i not right? #2What passage is it now.......something to do with a man in Hell who pleads with God to be let into Heaven or go back to earth, and God says there can be no communication between the two. In the Old Testament, its there! So if we can not have anything to do with Hell until we get there, #4 how can we have anything to do with Satans rule on earth?

And then there is a second question: If God is all powerful and all the wonderful things he is supposed to be able to do, #5 then how the hell can he have been beaten by Satan? And when Jesus was crucified, he apparently went down into the depths of hell and was resurrected after he had found and brought back the keys to hell, am I not right? #6 So was Jesus letting Satan out, or locking him away? It doesnt make sense.

#7 So if we look at things like corporate prayers for all the sick and dying out there, why dont they work? If you were to get 500 people together in a stadium and ask them to pray for all bone cancer victims in the world to be cured, why is it not effective? It is not effective because God doesnt want these people to get better, not even one or two people. #8 Or it is not effective because he has no real power. Which one is it?

#1. This is not a "new spin".
#2.The scripture you are reffering to is Luke 16:19-31:
Jesus said," There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury. At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores. As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man's table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.
Finaly, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and his sould went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side.
The rich man shouted, 'Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.'
But Abraham said to him, 'Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. And besides, there is a great chasm septerating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.
Then the rich man said, 'Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father's home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don't end up in this place of torment.'
But Abraham said, 'Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.'
"The rich man replied 'No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins, and turn to God.'
But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.'"
#3&4. God did not give rule to Satan because man. He has given Satan dominion over the earth and the people that choose to serve Satan. The Bible teaches that you cannot serve two masters. You either serve God or Satan. If you do not follow God then Satan is your God.
#5. God has not been defeated, the End has not come.
#6. Jesus went to free the rithteous people that were locked in "Hell", not free Satan.
#7. The prayers do work sometimes. Just because someone asks doesn't mean that they will recieve what they pray for. It has to be God's will for it to happen. Some pepole pray for the wrong reasons, or they don't understand the plan that God has. I have seen prayer work in my life and the lives of my loved ones. We must not just seek what God can do for us but also what we can do for God.
#8. God has ALL power. He is the creator of everything. We limit His ability to bless us because of the fact that we don't yield to his commands.


God Bless

Adil

 

[sojourner]

He has given Satan dominion over the earth and the people that choose to serve Satan.

I don't think the Bible tells us (nor does Xy) that God has given Satan dominion over the earth. The Bible does say, in Genesis 1 that God gave humanity dominion over earth.

 

[annunaki_24]

True indeed

 

[adilrockstar]

I don't think the Bible tells us (nor does Xy) that God has given Satan dominion over the earth. The Bible does say, in Genesis 1 that God gave humanity dominion over earth.

The Bible:

John 12:31
The time for judging this world, has come, when Satan, THE RULER OF THIS WORLD, will be cast out.

This scripture should give proof of what the Bible says when it comes to Satan's authority. I can provide more if anyone would like.

God Bless

 

[wmam]

The Bible:

John 12:31
The time for judging this world, has come, when Satan, THE RULER OF THIS WORLD, will be cast out.

This scripture should give proof of what the Bible says when it comes to Satan's authority. I can provide more if anyone would like.

God Bless

I agree.........

Remember as to what Helel said to Yahshua in the wilderness...........

Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Luk 4:8 And Yahshua answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship YAH thy Elohim, and him only shalt thou serve.

This is why I don't vote anymore..........Why would I want to support a system of Helel? I wouldn't.

 

[adilrockstar]

I agree.........

Remember as to what Helel said to Yahshua in the wilderness...........

Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Luk 4:8 And Yahshua answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship YAH thy Elohim, and him only shalt thou serve.

This is why I don't vote anymore..........Why would I want to support a system of Helel? I wouldn't.

I understand where you are coming from. I still believe in voting though. The reason I still believe in voting is because God can take something Bad and turn it into something Good. We cannot see the full picture. God is always in control, no matter what the situation is, He allows it to happen for a reason.

God Bless

Adil

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

The parent approves of allowing something to take place. The parent may not like theft, but in order to correct this kind of misbehavior, the parent must APPROVE of a specific course of action to show the child the error of it's ways. The course of action in the example is the allowance of the theft. IF the parent did not approve of this course of corrective action, is it not reasonable to assume that the parent would have chosen a different course/method to correct the child?

The ideal would be for the child never to steal at all, and never have to be corrected. However, if the child does steal, it is not wrong for the parent to allow the child to suffer the consequences of the child's action...that does not mean the parent approves of the action itself, merely that the parent makes the best of a bad situation.

He does? Why does God want?

Didn't I just say this? "an infinite number of things."

Why can he not have?

Because He allows His creation to have bit of say in what happens in their existence.

I find it amusing that no one is addressing the bartdanr quote from post #30.

Didn't see it sorry...I have a bad habit of not reading entire threads before commenting...*slaps own hand*

Evil need not be necessary in free will people, and certainly not if the creator has infinite capabilities. Free will does not result the ability to choose to do ANYTHING. Can you teleport yourself to Mars based on willpower? No. We already have limits. The ability to choose to do evil could have easily been removed from human "programming", but God seems to prefer we torture each other.

Except that you're comparing apples to oranges with your teleportation analogy. In the case of free will in the Christian schema, our choice was/is to either do as God says or not. Since God is completely good and perfect, deviation from His ways is by definition imperfect and evil. Our limitations include the choice to do either good or evil. Could God have removed that choice? Sure. However, if God allowed us only to do good for all eternity, we would be robots, we wouldn't be choosing to serve Him, which is what He wants.

(Note: the problem of what we consider "evil" is easily addressed by evolutionary psychology...my ultimate point here is that the God hypothesis is a weak one. But let's continue...)

I don't see how it's addressed so easily...different cultures have evolved different moralities...for some people groups, it was moral to rip people's hearts out of their chests...neither evolution, nor evolutionary psychology, define for us which morality is superior, nor indicates which is objective, if any.

Why not? If God had infinite powers what's to prevent this?

Us. Again, He allows us to have some say with what we do in our lives, even if what we do doesn't please Him...if we only did what God wanted because we were only capable of doing what God wanted, would we be freely choosing to do those things? No. I don't know why that concept is so hard to grasp.

And why wouldn't God want what you consider "ideal"?

He does. However, all things that He wants don't come to pass. God is not a tyrant, He allows us to make choices.

Is it possible that he considers the present state of things the ideal

Since God is totally good, and everything in the present state of things is not good, no, I wouldn't say that He considers the present state ideal.

...and in other words, APPROVES of how things are?

ALLOWS? yes. APPROVES? no....again, there is a difference.

 

[wmam]

I understand where you are coming from. I still believe in voting though. The reason I still believe in voting is because God can take something Bad and turn it into something Good. We cannot see the full picture. God is always in control, no matter what the situation is, He allows it to happen for a reason.

God Bless

Adil

I agree that He can take something bad and use it for good, and no, we as mere mortals cannot see the whole picture, and yes, He is always in control no matter what the situation, but, the key to all you said was, "He allows it to happen for a reason."

What is it that He allows?

TEST!

He also allows Helel to tempt us with all kinds of carnality. Everything of this world is vanity and the one that has been given the control and rulership of this carnal world uses that vanity to seduce us into sin. When are we as the sons and daughters of the Creator going to start taking on the responsibility of our own actions with everything we do and repent for our stupidity of the true will of Elohim? This system of Helel's children, that we vote into office, is not that of which holds up the true will of YAH. It is in fact in total opposition to it. I have to stand firm in not supporting that which is in opposition to the will of the Most High. Yes He has allowed it to happen as He does all kinds of negative things in this world but the why is to test us to see what, through free will, we will choose. Death or life. Things of this world is dead. Its all vanity. It's ruler, at this point and time, is the great deceiver Himself, Helel. He gives it to whomever He chooses. Is knowing this truth upsetting? For many, and maybe even most, sure, but for those that understand the big picture knows that it all has had a purpose and still will continue until the end. The Most High is going to make sure those that are truly seeking out His will to obtain eternal life are those that will always choose to do His will no matter what the situation. It's all a test. To choose that which is in opposition to that will is flunking the test.

Question...... What does scriptures say about what the sons of Elohim are to do when it comes to setting themselves rulers over themselves? I be willing to bet that what we have here, as well as most any other nation of this carnal world, is not even close.
In fact it is in opposition to the scripture. I mean you do agree if one professes to do as a book of instructions tell's them to do and they choose not to do it that this descion is in opposition to those instructions correct? Actually, look at who came up with the instructions. One would believe that whatever the instructions were for that this person being the creator of said item either wrote theinstructions or gave that authority over to one of his chossing. So are we to conclude that by one not observing the will of that one that first developed and created said item through the observance of said instructions that we are then placed in opposition to that person? It would mean that we do not agree with them wouldn't it? We continue to live our lives as we see fit. We go by what we think and feel and not by the instructions of the one who created all. this puts us in opposition with Him.

We just think we know but in reality we continue to sign our own death warrents with all this " Well I just think." or "Well I just feel." When are we going to realize that it has nothing to do with what we think and feel? It all has to do with how we do the will of the Most High. Voting in an evil system of this world isn't part of that will for those that are truly seeking to do His will.

But hey........Thats just the way I think and feel.