If God allows something then he approves of it, right?

[sojourner]

"love me unconditionally or spend all eternity is hell" is an ultimatum, not a choice.

Where does that quote come from?

 

[Radio Frequency X]

So God does not have infinite possibilities? He is not all-powerful?

If all-powerful means, "able to create contradictions", then no, God is not all powerful.

 

[Faint]

Where does that quote come from?

It's one of the themes in the Bible. If you don't do what God wants...bad things happen to you.

Consider:
Luke 12:5
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

There's plenty more where this came from. They're threats. "Love him. Do what he says. Or else!"

 

[Faint]

If all-powerful means, "able to create contradictions", then no, God is not all powerful.

Okay, so that's your opinion. And yes, if he is not all-powerful then it is possible that he does not want evil to exist...yet he does not have the POWER to stop it. In other words he doesn't approve of evil, nor does he allow it. He just can't stop it. This is not the God I'm talking about.

Clearly you do not accept point number 1) in my OP. That's fine, but this thread topic is pretty much geared towards those who believe God is all-powerful/all-knowing.

 

[wmam]

The Most High created us and imposes such rules and guidelines on His creation as He deems fit. Who are we as the creation to argue the means and ways of the Creator?

Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

and.........

Jer 18:6 O house of Yisrael, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith YAH. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in mine hand, O house of Yisrael

and further..........

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moshe', I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of Elohim that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might shew my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 You wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art you that repliest against Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast you made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if Elohim, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Hebrews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He made us for good and some for destruction to show His power. Even the righteous will be tested until the end. It is written ........

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which YAH hath promised to them that love him.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of Elohim: for Elohim cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

There is a choice. Life or death. You may call it an ultimatum. Still a choice..........

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Deu 11:27 A blessing, if you obey the commandments of YAH your Elohim, which I command you this day:

Deu 11:28 And a curse, if you will not obey the commandments YAH your Elohim, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which you have not known.

and.....

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:

Deu 30:20 That you mayest love YAH your Elohim, and that you mayest obey his voice, and that you mayest cleave unto him: for he is your life, and the length of your days: that you mayest dwell in the land which YAH sware unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

as well as .........

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

It is also written that YAH is longsuffering. Given everyone the grace of time to make his/her choice. Choose wisely before His patience runs out.

 

[Willamena]

Consider this: you're the U.S. Government. You tolerate religious freedom. You see a religion like Scientology and think to your collective self..." this religion is silly. I don't like it...but I will allow it to operate in my country as allowing the freedom to choose who to worship--even L.Ron Hubbard--is necessary for the country's greater good." You therefore, by not acting to shut down or remove the religion, it...you are approving of its continued existence.

By contrast, let's say you (still the U.S. Government) hear about a little group of people in Waco, Texas who have a religion where their leader David Koresh thinks it's cool for guys to have sex with underaged girls. Obviously you as an agency do not approve of this religion (i.e. you do not see reason tolerate it), so you send in federal troops to shut it down. This is an example disapproval and action taken to show disapproval.

First off, tolerating is allowing something *bad*, not good, and not silly (which could also be good). If a government is allowing religion, and allowing religion is a good and lawful thing for a government to do, then that is an example of what is proper, not tolerance. You are correct, though, that the second is an example of intolerance; the religion is not allowed. Disapproval is incidental.

Secondly, even if I personally don't like it, if I am a government (i.e. wearing my government hat) then I am not a person (private citizen with rights and all), so I refer back to #1.

Thirdly, if I am a person (not a goverment) who dislikes something but allows it to be, I still don't see any implicit approval in that. In most cases, things will continue to exist whether I approve of them or not. If I disapprove of abortion, and act to create and maintain laws to discourage it, will abortions cease? I think not.

God supposedly has the power to shut down evil. He hasn't. It seems clear that he is tolerating it, and as I keep saying...approves. See?

God also allegedly has the power of compassion and some intention that we learn from our own mistakes.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

You're contradicting yourself. The parent "allows" but doesn't approve of allowing?

No, the parent doesn't approve of the action, but allows it to take place to teach the child a lesson.

Does the parent then have no choice in the matter? How does this apply to a God who can do anything he wants?

Because God wants an infinite number of things: not all of them take place, because He allows us to make decisions, even when they are things that He may not approve of. Unless you'd like us all to be robots, you should appreciate this.

OF COURSE the parent approves of what he/she allows! If your kid is going to steal a candy bar and you the parent let them do it so that they'll learn a lesson when they get caught, then you are in fact condoning their theft in the first place as you want them to steal the candy so they will learn a lesson. It's very simple.

Wrong. The parent allows something bad to eventually bring about a good result. The fact that something bad can be turned around if we learn from it to produce positive things in our lives, does not make the bad thing acceptable in the first place (unless you're condoning stealing?). The ideal would be for all humanity to do good all the time, but that's not going to happen. Therefore, we make lemons out of lemonade, and have the ability to repent and learn from wrong actions and decision we make.

 

[Faint]

The Most High created us and imposes such rules and guidelines on His creation as He deems fit. Who are we as the creation to argue the means and ways of the Creator?

He made us for good and some for destruction to show His power. Even the righteous will be tested until the end. It is written ........

There is a choice. Life or death. You may call it an ultimatum. Still a choice..........

It is also written that YAH is longsuffering. Given everyone the grace of time to make his/her choice. Choose wisely before His patience runs out.

So you are saying that not only does God approve of suffering and that he makes "some for destruction to show his power" but that it's okay for him to demand our love under the threat of death.

Would you tell a loved one that if they choose not to love you, you will kill them? Does that seem fair?

 

[Popeyesays]

Dear Faint,

Let's look at it this way:

Your logical statement makes no logical sense.
God is indeed All-Powerful. The power of creation was His, not man's. If man is capable of that power let's see somebody, anybody create a single atom of hydrogen out of NOTHING. He can't use bits and pieces of sub-atmoic particles from something else, he has to do it out of thin air--oooops!!!!! No he can't do it out of thin air because that would be something from something else, not something from nothing.

Now if God is all-powerful does that detract so much as an iota of substance from any one man's responsibility for his own actions?

Defend that position--after all you asserted it as true. Prove it!!!!! Prove that I believe it before you say that someone who believes in the over-wheening might of God, must believe that anything that exists exists because God wills it.

All of creation is good. Man creates evil by his own choice and bears responsibility for that choice before God and the rest of humanity.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Faint]

No, the parent doesn't approve of the action, but allows it to take place to teach the child a lesson.

The parent approves of allowing something to take place. The parent may not like theft, but in order to correct this kind of misbehavior, the parent must APPROVE of a specific course of action to show the child the error of it's ways. The course of action in the example is the allowance of the theft. IF the parent did not approve of this course of corrective action, is it not reasonable to assume that the parent would have chosen a different course/method to correct the child?

Because God wants an infinite number of things

He does? Why does God want? Why can he not have? Again, is he not all-powerful?

Unless you'd like us all to be robots, you should appreciate this.

I find it amusing that no one is addressing the bartdanr quote from post #30. Evil need not be necessary in free will people, and certainly not if the creator has infinite capabilities. Free will does not result the ability to choose to do ANYTHING. Can you teleport yourself to Mars based on willpower? No. We already have limits. The ability to choose to do evil could have easily been removed from human "programming", but God seems to prefer we torture each other.

(Note: the problem of what we consider "evil" is easily addressed by evolutionary psychology...my ultimate point here is that the God hypothesis is a weak one. But let's continue...)

The ideal would be for all humanity to do good all the time, but that's not going to happen.

Why not? If God had infinite powers what's to prevent this? And why wouldn't God want what you consider "ideal"? Is it possible that he considers the present state of things the ideal...and in other words, APPROVES of how things are?

 

[Faint]

Your logical statement makes no logical sense.

Ok. Fasten your seat belt.

God is indeed All-Powerful.

Ok. Hold that thought...

The power of creation was His, not man's. If man is capable of that power let's see somebody, anybody create a single atom of hydrogen out of NOTHING. He can't use bits and pieces of sub-atmoic particles from something else, he has to do it out of thin air--oooops!!!!! No he can't do it out of thin air because that would be something from something else, not something from nothing.

This turned out to be very useful. See the last response below...

Now if God is all-powerful does that detract so much as an iota of substance from any one man's responsibility for his own actions?

Pretty much because...
According to you God created everyone/everything...this also entails creating the potential of everyone/everything AND entails that if God is all-knowing he would have foreseen every possible result/decision that his design (humans and the universe in general) would make. Free will or not, God would have forseen all murders, rapes, child molestations, natural disasters, David Blaines, etc. This would be like Ford releasing a vehicle called the Pinto that they KNOW has a gas tank near the rear bumper that is likely to explode on impact and burn all the passengers alive (oh, wait...they actually did release those vehicles) but still choosing to release it to the unsuspecting public. The point is that Ford (and the God apparently since he's all-knowing) REALIZED there is a flaw in the design, but Ford (and God) still decided to put their respective designs into mass production anyway. The only "logical" (haha) conclusion to the idea that an all-powerful being created the universe is that the state of everything (even free will and its results) is part of his plan. There is no one who can ultimately take responsiblity for anything except for the one who supposedly created it all (i.e. God).

Defend that position--after all you asserted it as true. Prove it!!!!! Prove that I believe it before you say that someone who believes in the over-wheening might of God, must believe that anything that exists exists because God wills it.

Did. No what?

All of creation is good. Man creates evil by his own choice and bears responsibility for that choice before God and the rest of humanity.

Are you saying here or trying to imply that man is independent of creation? As you said with your hydrogen atom analogy...man cannot create "something from nothing". Anything we try to make must come from God's creation, RIGHT? So then, how does man create evil out of nothing? (Oooooo...nice one Faint!)

 

[wmam]

So you are saying

I gave the scriptural references which gave the word of truth. It wasn't I that spoke, but the truth.

that not only does God approve of suffering

What gives, or gave, you the impression that YAH cares anything about the flesh?

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Elohim; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased YAH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YAH shall prosper in his hand.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

and that he makes "some for destruction to show his power"

I shall re-post......

Rom 9:22 What if Elohim, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

but that it's okay for him to demand our love under the threat of death.

Again a re-post.....

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art you that repliest against Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast you made me thus?

Would you tell a loved one that if they choose not to love you, you will kill them? Does that seem fair?

Job 21:27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.

Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith YAH.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Am I YAH that made all things and chooses to do with my creation as I see fit? If I were, would I demand respect and obedience from that of my creation? Would my wrath consume me such that I might choose to flood the world save 8 that found favor in my sight for the righteousness of their father? Would I love them so much to be so patient and to give my only begotten to make it easier for them?

Why ask why? What is it that you are searching for? Is it your purpose? If so then it is the same as all the rest.........

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear Elohim, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[Quiddity]

This is pretty much summed up by the parent-punishing-child arguement. If you don't mind Victor, please explain how anything in existence is not a result of God's alleged design. Is there an outside agency at work...one beyond the powers of God?

The agency lays within us all (free will). It is the one thing that God refuses to intervene with and that has no mathematical formula and therefore the concept of “all knowing” is often misunderstood. You remember that scene in the Matrix Revolutions where the Architect essentially tells Neo that the one thing he couldn’t formulate is human choice. That it’s beyond probability because the human mind is bound by nothing and so therefore nothing can bind it.

In a similar way, God is that architect, except He understands human choice (due to emotions) far better then the Matrix Architect. So when I say God is all knowing as it relates to humanity, I do not mean that He knows what people will choose. Instead, what I mean is that He is aware of the possibilities and the consequences that come with it. So for example if I am faced with options A, B, and C and each of them can lead me into a different path then God is aware of A, B, and C but doesn’t know which one we will choose. But He is ready for each option. By ready I mean He brings about the greatest good that can come of the choice made.

You may be thinking that He still has the ability to stop it if He so chooses but I think Booko, FGS, and others have done a good job of explaining my stance on that.

BTW, the best arguement I can think of to say that God doesn't approve of bad things is that he is not all-powerful/all-knowing and that he did not design the universe.

What’s wrong with my argument?

 

[Faint]

I gave the scriptural references which gave the word of truth. It wasn't I that spoke, but the truth.

Yes, but you're quote passages from a specific source on a debate forum. I must assume that you agree with those passages. I'm trying to find out WHY.

What gives, or gave, you the impression that YAH cares anything about the flesh?

Personally, I would say that if the God depicted in the Bible is real then he has certainly demonstrated that he does not care about humans at all...flesh or no flesh.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased YAH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YAH shall prosper in his hand.

What does that have to do with anything?

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Again, irrelevant.

Rom 9:22 What if Elohim, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Right...so he created some just to suffer...to make his power known (nevermind that posting a great big neon sign in the sky that says "REPENT!!" would have been a better, more understandable & human-friendly solution).

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art you that repliest against Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast you made me thus?

What makes your God above reasonable morality? If you and a mate "make" (i.e. create) a child, is it fair for you to be a tyrant to your child? Are you above morality simply because you brought something into being? No...you have a responsibility to look after what you made and treat it well.

Job 21:27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.

No doubt God is working for the NSA and also has detailed transcriptions of every phone call we've ever made.

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith YAH.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Am I YAH that made all things and chooses to do with my creation as I see fit? If I were, would I demand respect and obedience from that of my creation? Would my wrath consume me such that I might choose to flood the world save 8 that found favor in my sight for the righteousness of their father? Would I love them so much to be so patient and to give my only begotten to make it easier for them?

Look...you can quote passages all day long but they do nothing to refute my arguement. Why not speak for yourself...address the topic directly instead of flinging verses at me. Create a rebuttle, tell me why God is all-powerful and not responsible for evil; tell me how he does not approve of evil, and we'll go from there.

Why ask why? What is it that you are searching for? Is it your purpose? If so then it is the same as all the rest.........

It's an easy question to answer. I'm surprised you haven't. I'll repeat: Would you tell a loved one that if they choose not to love you, you will kill them? Does that seem fair? Forget the commandments and what God supposedly wants. Tell me what you would do as a free-thinking entity. Would you threaten someone to love you? Or would you love someone who threatened to kill you if you didn't love them?

 

[Faint]

The agency lays within us all (free will). It is the one thing that God refuses to intervene with and that has no mathematical formula and therefore the concept of “all knowing” is often misunderstood. You remember that scene in the Matrix Revolutions where the Architect essentially tells Neo that the one thing he couldn’t formulate is human choice. That it’s beyond probability because the human mind is bound by nothing and so therefore nothing can bind it.

In a similar way, God is that architect, except He understands human choice (due to emotions) far better then the Matrix Architect. So when I say God is all knowing as it relates to humanity, I do not mean that He knows what people will choose. Instead, what I mean is that He is aware of the possibilities and the consequences that come with it. So for example if I am faced with options A, B, and C and each of them can lead me into a different path then God is aware of A, B, and C but doesn’t know which one we will choose. But He is ready for each option. By ready I mean He brings about the greatest good that can come of the choice made.

You may be thinking thatHestill has the ability to stop it ifHeso chooses but I think Booko, FGS, and others have done a good job of explaining my stance on that.

What’s wrong with my argument?

Thanks. So basically in your view God knows the possibilities but not the specifics of what we will do exactly? In other words, he does not know EVERYTHING (i.e. all outcomes) due to the free will variable? He is like a scientist who does not know which part of the maze the mouse will choose to run down, but he can see where all the turns lead? Is that basically what you're getting at?

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Okay, so that's your opinion. And yes, if he is not all-powerful then it is possible that he does not want evil to exist...yet he does not have the POWER to stop it. In other words he doesn't approve of evil, nor does he allow it. He just can't stop it. This is not the God I'm talking about.

Clearly you do not accept point number 1) in my OP. That's fine, but this thread topic is pretty much geared towards those who believe God is all-powerful/all-knowing.

I'm not sure I agree. I'm not sure how anyone can believe that God is capable of contradictions. His untimely demise over the babble-fish fiasco is an excellent example. lol

 

[Quiddity]

Thanks.

Your welcome.

So basically in your view God knows the possibilities but not the specifics of what we will do exactly? In other words, he does not know EVERYTHING (i.e. all outcomes) due to the free will variable?

He knows the outcomes, just not which outcome you will choose.

He is like a scientist who does not know which part of the maze the mouse will choose to run down, but he can see where all the turns lead? Is that basically what you're getting at?

That sounds about right.

 

[jacquie4000]

Very well put Victor...

 

[wmam]

Yes, but you're quote passages from a specific source on a debate forum. I must assume that you agree with those passages. I'm trying to find out WHY.

Why what?

Why I choose to post passages from a specific source or why I believe the truth?

Personally, I would say that if the God depicted in the Bible is real then he has certainly demonstrated that he does not care about humans at all...flesh or no flesh.

Why would He?

What does that have to do with anything?

Here.......

that not only does God approve of suffering

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased YAH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YAH shall prosper in his hand.

? Is it that hard to understand why it is very relevant to your question ?

Again, irrelevant.

Oh well........Sorry you seem to think so.

Right...so he created some just to suffer...to make his power known (nevermind that posting a great big neon sign in the sky that says "REPENT!!" would have been a better, more understandable & human-friendly solution).

Where does it state that YAH is "human-friendly"?

What makes your God above reasonable morality?

Whose definition of reasonable morality are we bound to with your question? Yours?

If you and a mate "make" (i.e. create) a child,

Only Elohim creates life and all life is His.

is it fair for you to be a tyrant to your child?

Whose definition of the word "tyrant" are we using?

Are you above morality simply because you brought something into being?

Whose definition of the word "morality" are we using? And as I said....... "Only Elohim creates life and all life is His."

No...you have a responsibility to look after what you made and treat it well.

By whose authority am I made to look at what my responsibilities entail?

No doubt God is working for the NSA

I'm sure you are mistaken. If anything, it would be the opposite.

and also has detailed transcriptions of every phone call we've ever made.

As well as every thought and private thing that everyone has done in secret places. He knows all, remember?

Look...you can quote passages all day long but they do nothing to refute my arguement.

LOL......... Just because you say so uh?

Why not speak for yourself..

That would profit nothing. All the thoughts and feelings of man are nothing but vanity. They are all worthless. Nothing matters except the will of YAH our Elohim.

address the topic directly

I did but you do not understand. It is o.k. I understand. It isn't meant for all to get it.

instead of flinging verses at me.

Ohhhhhhh...... does it hurt. Don't "faint".

Create a rebuttle, tell me why God is all-powerful

He did.

and not responsible for evil;

That wouldn't be true.

Pro 16:4 YAH hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

tell me how he does not approve of evil, and we'll go from there.

Is sin evil? Is it not written that the punishment for sin is death? Did we not already go over the choices of either a blessing or a curse, life or death? Again it is o.k. It really isn't meant for all to get it.

It's an easy question to answer. I'm surprised you haven't. I'll repeat: Would you tell a loved one that if they choose not to love you, you will kill them? Does that seem fair? Forget the commandments and what God supposedly wants. Tell me what you would do as a free-thinking entity. Would you threaten someone to love you? Or would you love someone who threatened to kill you if you didn't love them?

Am I supposed to answer this as a man or under the premise that I was the Creator?

Are you sure that your not just upset that you was given life to begin with now that you have found out that it came with some attachments?

 

[Popeyesays]

Faint,

What God wants is for us to CHOOSE, and live with the consequences of the choice.

Regards,
Scott