If God exists why does He allow suffering?

[SeekingAllTruth]

Wait a sec, you're trying to tell me that the vast majority of humans in the world are so completely miserable that they'd wish they were never born?

No, that's your summation of what I was saying. The vast majority of mankind live in squalor in continents like Asia, Africa, and parts of South America. many Americans and European live in squalor, poor as church mice. Do they wish they'd never been born. Lots of them do that's why suicide and drugs are so prevalent in these places. Most probably wish they'd been born into the Royal Family instead.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you misquoted. I said, "NO God could take part in that kind of cruelty."

You said: "No God could take part in the kind of cruelty inflicted on the vast majority of humans."
I do not believe that God takes part in it, but He does know about it, and sits idly by.
What people make of that is there own choice.

As I am sure you know, religious people make all kinds of excuses for their God. It is always man's fault, even when it wasn't something man did wrong to bring on his suffering. How can people be so blind? It's called indoctrination.

Whenever something good happens it is always attributed to God, but when something bad happens it is never attributed to God; but if God is responsible for everything in existence you cannot make that work unless you are illogical.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The argument supporting the claim that suffering was created as a necessary challenge to motivate moral progress:

P1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise)
P2 We humans were created with free will and capable of both bad and good behavior.
P3 Bad behavior adds to suffering
P4 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate change.
P5 We humans have indeed been making moral progress.
C1 Therefore, it's likely that suffering was created as a necessary challenge to motivate moral progress.

I've never seen Trump suffer from his bad behavior unless you're referring to the suffering he inflicts on others because of his bad behavior. It's a myth that bad people suffer from their bad behavior.

A world without suffering wouldn't necessitate motivation to change.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, that's your summation of what I was saying. The vast majority of mankind live in squalor in continents like Asia, Africa, and parts of South America. many Americans and European live in squalor, poor as church mice. Do they wish they'd never been born. Lots of them do that's why suicide and drugs are so prevalent in these places. Most probably wish they'd been born into the Royal Family instead.

It's too bad most Baha'is do not have the compassion you have for humanity, and it is really ironic because what the Baha'i Faith teaches is that we should care for all of humanity, and all the social and economic injustices. But sadly, some Baha'is are too busy defending their God, when it is humanity that needs their help, not an omni-everything God.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

You said: "No God could take part in the kind of cruelty inflicted on the vast majority of humans."
I do not believe that God takes part in it, but He does know about it, and sits idly by.
What people make of that is there own choice.

As I am sure you know, religious people make all kinds of excuses for their God. It is always man's fault, even when it wasn't something man or did wrong to bring on their suffering. How can people be so blind? It's called indoctrination.

Whenever something good happens it is always attributed to God, but when something bad happens it is never attributed to God; but if God is responsible for everything in existence you cannot make that work unless you are illogical.

You're absolutely right. The only part I'm not sure about is whether or not God knows about it. If he does, then as Epicurus said, he's malevolent. My guess is he's not aware of it or if he is he doesn't care.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

It's too bad most Baha'is do not have the compassion you have for humanity, and it is really ironic because what the Baha'i Faith teaches is that we should care for all of humanity, and all the social and economic injustices. But sadly, some Baha'is are too busy defending their God, when it is humanity that needs their help, not an omni-everything God.

Little broke my heart more than viewing dozens of videos on YouTube about life in slums of the world. This scene in India is repeated in most poor countries of Asia, South America, middle East, and Africa. You can see these videos in Venezuela, Brazil, Philippines, Bangkok, Myanmar, Mexico, and just about every country in Africa. I wanted to show this to panama pete, but I'll post it here and refer him to it.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Wait a sec, you're trying to tell me that the vast majority of humans in the world are so completely miserable that they'd wish they were never born?

Have a look at post No 206.

 

[Trailblazer]

You're absolutely right. The only part I'm not sure about is whether or not God knows about it. If he does, then as Epicurus said, he's malevolent. My guess is he's not aware of it or if he is he doesn't care.

I believe that God knows about it because God is All-Knowing.
I do not think it means that God is malevolent or that God doesn't care.
I believe that why God allows suffering is a mystery and only God knows the answer.
I believe we will know more in the afterlife.

Apologists believe they have the answer but the best answer on this thread was this one:

#2 Conscious thoughts, Yesterday at 2:56 AM

 

[rational experiences]

Human reasoning all advice.

Humans know God one body O earth plus it's heavens is naturally reactive.

A planet can remove our life instantly.

Then occult radiation science also caused planet body and heaven changes.

Heavens changed naturally by storms.

Science caused radiation fallout.

Blamed God as humans do for changing. As changed God spirits O of earth harmed us.

Reason....a spiritual human healthy life mind and body pondered what was taught afterwards to be evil.

Why we said humans innocent of not knowing a changed God body surely learnt.

Yet they didn't.

Reason a loving healthy spiritual brother human agreement nuclear science did it.

And really owns no excuse.

 

[Trailblazer]

Little broke my heart more than viewing dozens of videos on YouTube about life in slums of the world. This scene in India is repeated in most poor countries of Asia, South America, middle East, and Africa. You can see these videos in Venezuela, Brazil, Philippines, Bangkok, Myanmar, Mexico, and just about every country in Africa. I wanted to show this to panama pete, but I'll post it here and refer him to it.

Nobody should have to live like that ...
I did a Google search on 'bahaulah elimination of poverty' and you can see how many articles and websites there are.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=bahaulah+elimintion+of+poverty

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If God exists why does He allow suffering?

Well, if he exists, maybe he just doesn't give a rat's ***! You know, he's God and can't suffer so no biggie if something else does.

Please argue....

 

[Trailblazer]

If God exists why does He allow suffering?

Well, if he exists, maybe he just doesn't give a rat's ***! You know, he's God and can't suffer so no biggie if something else does.

Please argue....

I cannot argue with that but I'm sure you will find some apologists who will.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Nobody should have to live like that ...
I did a Google search on 'bahaulah elimination of poverty' and you can see how many articles and websites there are.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=bahaulah+elimintion+of+poverty

Here's an eye-popping number that will shock you:

New Data: Top 1% of Americans Wealthier Than Bottom 50%

 

[Trailblazer]

Here's an eye-popping number that will shock you:

New Data: Top 1% of Americans Wealthier Than Bottom 50%

I was able to watch the video you posted. What struck me about the video was how happy those people were, despite their poverty. I am not suggesting that people should live in poverty, only that people can be happy in spite of it. Happiness does not come from material wealth, it is a state of mind, and it is about family and fiends. How happy do you think most people are in America even if they have money? If they are happy it is because they have family and friends, not because they have a big house or a new car, but people still believe they have to have all that to be happy. It is s cultural thing.

The more materialistic people have the more they want. Simple people are not like that. They are satisfied with what they have.
I also noticed how kind and gracious they were in the video, and it was real, not an act.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I was able to watch the video you posted. What struck me about the video was how happy those people were, despite their poverty. I am not suggesting that people should live in poverty, only that people can be happy in spite of it. Happiness does not come from material wealth, it is a state of mind, and it is about family and fiends. How happy do you think most people are in America even if they have money? If they are happy it is because they have family and friends, not because they have a big house or a new car, but people still believe they have to have all that to be happy. It is s cultural thing.

The more materialistic people have the more they want. Simple people are not like that. They are satisfied with what they have. I also noticed how kind and gracious they were in the video, and it was real, not an act.

It's true that they people do appear happy, especially the kids. But those happy faces can be deceiving. There are parts of these cities and countries that no one should be walking at night, even parts of the day. Philippines is one of the most dangerous countries for Americans in the world. So is Brazil and Venezuela. So it's kind of like the famous drama masks comedy/tragedy. It's two faces of the same coin.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Have a look at post No 206.

Interesting. Just the same, are you still insisting that the vast majority of humankind are in the bottom quintile?

 

[Pete in Panama]

...The vast majority of mankind live in squalor...

Sounds like you live in the U.S. & have never lived abroad in different socioeconomic arenas.

A few years ago I had the pleasure of staying w/ a pretty successful man who owned a lot of property on both sides of the town's main thoroughfare and the guy was donating a parcel on the side opposite his home where he built a center for religious activities --he said he wanted something "for the kids". That's one way of looking at him. Another way was the fact that the main thoroughfare was a foot trail a day or two's walk from the nearest paved road, he had no furniture in his home & we all sat on logs lashed to the posts holding up a metal roof, no plumbing (had to cr@p in the corn field), no medical care (many days away), & of course no electricity.

Was this man rich or was he poor? My personal take was that the subject goes beyond our easy definitions & there's a lot more to life than an American op-ed. I can tell you he sure seemed happy, he was w/ his extended family, he had hopes for the future, he was raising his young --what more could we ever want?

Still you cling to the idea that "the vast majority of mankind live in squalor" --and the inference is that they hate it-- and my guess is that there's absolutely nothing I could possibly tell you that would ever dissuade u from your belief. It'd be wonderful if you could show me the error of my ways but I'd be content if we could be happy we met and exchanged points of view.

 

[Pete in Panama]

No, I do not think that it is the vast majority, it is probably a subset of people.

Agreed, and I'll go further to point out that most of those in hard times are there temporarily. Misery is a state enjoyed (imho) by either the career miserable who make a crusade out of it, or by folks who suddenly find themselves in a bad way & they get out of it fast enough. Most folks are doing pretty good.

 

[Audie]

Here's an eye-popping number that will shock you:

New Data: Top 1% of Americans Wealthier Than Bottom 50%

It's their own fault

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Sounds like you live in the U.S. & have never lived abroad in different socioeconomic arenas.

A few years ago I had the pleasure of staying w/ a pretty successful man who owned a lot of property on both sides of the town's main thoroughfare and the guy was donating a parcel on the side opposite his home where he built a center for religious activities --he said he wanted something "for the kids". That's one way of looking at him. Another way was the fact that the main thoroughfare was a foot trail a day or two's walk from the nearest paved road, he had no furniture in his home & we all sat on logs lashed to the posts holding up a metal roof, no plumbing (had to cr@p in the corn field), no medical care (many days away), & of course no electricity.

Was this man rich or was he poor? My personal take was that the subject goes beyond our easy definitions & there's a lot more to life than an American op-ed. I can tell you he sure seemed happy, he was w/ his extended family, he had hopes for the future, he was raising his young --what more could we ever want?

Still you cling to the idea that "the vast majority of mankind live in squalor" --and the inference is that they hate it-- and my guess is that there's absolutely nothing I could possibly tell you that would ever dissuade u from your belief. It'd be wonderful if you could show me the error of my ways but I'd be content if we could be happy we met and exchanged points of view.

Many people are happy living in squalor. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. But this is disregarding the health consequences of more prevalent disease, poverty and unsanitary conditions that all threaten the health of the kids. It's really no way to live and your sugarcoating it doesn't really get at the heart of why this is not a good situation to be in.