If God exists why does He allow suffering?

[Dave Watchman]

Biblical authorship? But the Bible is totally wrong already at page one. How could have God author it?

It's too elaborate to be penned by numerous disconnected human authors.

In Daniel and Revelation there are 18 prophetic time periods.

These are the keys.

Both events on Earth, and signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars, can indicate many, if not most, are completed.

Like Jesus said at the beginning of Mark, the TIME is fulfilled.

Like Isaac Newton suggested in his comentary on Daniel 9, that specific TIME, had a primary application, and a secondary application.

This points to us being inside the last heptad now.

Chow for now.

- Dave

 

[Pete in Panama]

You have no idea how you just made my day.
And coming from a Baha'i it means more than you will ever know.
You are right of course, some people are happy are the way they are regardless of circumstances, and it is not because they are "more spiritual." It is because of their predisposition which is hereditary...

No sure here if it hereditary or a choice in early upbringing but perhaps that's a distinction w/o a difference. Some of us are naturally happy --true. At the same time it's a lot of work for the rest of us but dang, it's worth it. It's more healthy, it's commanded to us by our Creator, and it's a moral imperative. Unhappy people are a burden to those around them and being happy is well, a favor u do for the other guy in the elevator whom you'll never see again.

...Unfortunately my husband is not naturally happy but he is not naturally prone to depression like me either. He is rather neutral but he constantly complains about physical problems and although he has nothing that serious considering his advanced age you'd think he is dying sometimes. No, he is not happy, he just does not realize it. He has given up on life so he is just going through the motions of living, and his rituals that keep him going.

There are a couple books I strongly recommend, I'd be willing to buy them for u but then u'd have to give me all ur personal info (that would be awkward) and heck they're cheap. One is "Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual" written by the guy who visited the rabbi I was talking about:

Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual
by Dennis Prager | Dec 9, 1998
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and the other is "HAPPINESS JEWELS FROM THE WORDS OF ABDU'L-BAHA"

That second one I got as a gift a long time ago & my guess is it's out of print. If u can get it fine, if not let me know & I'll scan the thing & send u a pdf.

 

[Dave Watchman]

And God did not see that coming?

he reminds me of those people who make train schedules, and then communicate a delay on account of some problems on the line.

This is what I say.

I'm not the spokesman for the Christians.

It does seem to confirm a reason why only the Father, and not the Son, would know the day and the hour.

The Father is the One who picks the Elect from before the foundation of the universe.

When the train is full, the call goes out, "All aboard.

Do you think if Satan, could even have just three years more, that he wouldn't go for the delay.

Ciao

- Dave

 

[viole]

This is what I say.

I'm not the spokesman for the Christians.

It does seem to confirm a reason why only the Father, and not the Son, would know the day and the hour.

The Father is the One who picks the Elect from before the foundation of the universe.

When the train is full, the call goes out, "All aboard.

Do you think if Satan, could even have just three years more, that he wouldn't go for the delay.

Ciao

- Dave

Looks like not even the Father knows that. With all those delays caused by Satan and such.

Ciao

- viole

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Politics change and who knows what country I'll be in when I kick off, but as far as Alzheimer's goes my take on my sister dying from it was that she was just as smart at the end but she was VERY VERY slow.

There's a lot to be said for the various ways of dying but as far as I know we don't have much of a choice --and when the time comes our choice is whether we want to indulge in self pity or do what we can w/ the time remaining.

Oh, don't worry. For most diseases humans die of, the suffering is slow, extremely painful and unrelenting. If we're going to talk about a loving God, there's no better example of how sadistic God can be than watching a child slowly dying of cancer. And then multiply that by tens of billions of people over the last millennia. Loving God indeed! That's part of what drove me to deism. No God could take part in the kind of cruelty inflicted on the vast majority of humans. Just watch a couple of YouTube videos of people living their last weeks and you'll get a pretty good idea of what you're in for if that how fate has chosen to take you out. I hope you have nerves of steel. Me, I've got that base covered. I've already looked into physician assisted dying in Switzerland or Belgium where euthanasia is legalized. If I get the diagnosis my bags are packed for the next flight there on a humanitarian visa.

 

[Koldo]

If you think that statement is logical, there's nothing I can say to you that would persuade you to change your mind.So, I'll pass on further discussion and allow any unbiased readers who might pass by to judge our "debate.".

As you wish.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Looks like not even the Father knows that. With all those delays caused by Satan and such.

Keep in mind this Satanic delay theory is just my own idea.

The Father had to know.

Because He's the One who picks the Elect from before the foundation of the universe.

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. - Ephesians 1:3-6​

Too much to unpack here.

"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” - Revelation 10:5-7​

But in the days.

When he is about to sound.

And the mystery of God will be accomplished.

All aboard.

Ciao

- Dave

 

[Pete in Panama]

...cruelty inflicted on the vast majority of humans...

Wait a sec, you're trying to tell me that the vast majority of humans in the world are so completely miserable that they'd wish they were never born?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thanks for that. It is undeniable that suffering exists in this life. Like my Abrahamic cousins, I believe God is powerful enough to prevent suffering and that He does care for His Creation.

I would also argue that if the universe we see around us actually were entirely the product of an omnipotent, omniscient God, then God not only failed to prevent suffering, but must have deliberately created it.

He tends not to intervene directly in most cases. His main mode of intervention is through guidance through His Prophets, their Teachings and the example of their lives.

This gets back to the point I raised earlier: when you say "God tends not to intervene most of the time," I hear "God tends to behave as if he doesn't exist most of the time."

All the Prophets of God have suffered and their response to suffering can often be of practical assistance. You don't need to be a theist to positively respond to suffering and many atheists respond positively to suffering just as the Prophets have. Ironically many atheists live and respond to suffering better than those who claim to be theists.

But how we respond to suffering only matters if suffering exists.

I personally don't see reconciling theism and suffering as being particularly problematic. I'm intrigued by those such as yourself who do. It sounds as if there is a significant difference between how atheists such as yourself and monotheist view the narrative that reconciles suffering with an All-Powerful and Loving God.

It's hard for me to say what the difference is, because as far as I can tell, monotheists haven't reconciled these two things.

One implication of having an omnipotent, omniscient creator-god who's responsible for the entire universe is that nothing in the universe was accidental or unavoidable. If something - e.g. suffering - exists, it exists because God deliberately chose it on its own merits.

The attempts I've seen by monotheists to address the problem of suffering usually ignore this implication; out of the few that I've seen actually take it on, they've all either ended up contradicting themselves or been some version of a non-answer ("God works in mysterious ways," etc.).

 

[Andrew Reil]

I see it allows us to submit to the fact that we do not exist without purpose.

We can look for that purpose in all we face, or we can find other ways to cope that do not see any purpose.

In the end, we can not really know why God chooses to do as God Willeth, but we can know that is the best choice for the progress of out soul.

Regards Tony

I agree that there is a purpose: progress. I believe we progressed as much as we could as spirit children of God (Rom 8:16) and that we were sent here "to see if [we] will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command [us]" (Abraham 3:25) We knew suffering was part of life, but that we could not be heirs of God unless "we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" (Rom 8:17).

I believe infants or children who die have had and will have other opportunities to progress.

 

[Andrew Reil]

Without the potential of suffering and imperfection there would be no free will. Joy and sadness, Good vrs evil etc.

Part of our suffering is a consequence of Lucifers rebellion against God.

I agree, both that there can be no joy without also having suffering, and that Lucifer rebelled and gives us an choice to either follow him or God. Choice is important, without which we cannot experience free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

The argument supporting the claim that suffering was created as a necessary challenge to motivate moral progress:

P1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise)
P2 We humans were created with free will and capable of both bad and good behavior.
P3 Bad behavior adds to suffering
P4 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate change.
P5 We humans have indeed been making moral progress.
C1 Therefore, it's likely that suffering was created as a necessary challenge to motivate moral progress.

That is an argument you put forth but not something you can ever prove, which is why I said it is a belief. Humans have been making moral progress but you cannot tie that to suffering since you cannot prove that progress could not have been made without the suffering, so it is just a theory.

Then you still have the problem of why a just and fair God would allow suffering to be seemingly random, although that is being too nice, since what really happens is that some people suffer much more than others through no fault of their own, while others get off pretty much scot-free. Bad behavior might add to the suffering but it is not always the cause.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way by determining our fate.

 

[Trailblazer]

there can be no joy without also having suffering,

And there can be no joy when one is always suffering.
Do you Christians ever bother to ask yourselves why a just and loving God allows some people to suffer so much more than others, through no fault of their own, and why some people hardly suffer at all? Some Baha'is think they have the answer but I do not agree with them.

Choice is important, without which we cannot experience free will.

Do you really think people choose to suffer? Tell that to a depressed person.

 

[Trailblazer]

No sure here if it hereditary or a choice in early upbringing but perhaps that's a distinction w/o a difference. Some of us are naturally happy --true. At the same time it's a lot of work for the rest of us but dang, it's worth it. It's more healthy, it's commanded to us by our Creator, and it's a moral imperative. Unhappy people are a burden to those around them and being happy is well, a favor u do for the other guy in the elevator whom you'll never see again.

Therein lies the reason I remain isolated from the other Baha'is and from everyone else. The assumption is that people can just 'choose' to be happy but I disagree with that assumption and so would any psychologist. I do not believe it was commanded by God or that it is a moral imperative to be happy. Abdu'l-Baha was not God and had no authority to speak for God. Show me where Baha'u'llah wrote that we are commanded to "be happy."

I decided to look it up for myself and below is what I found on this website. Baha'u'llah wrote what would make us happy, but He did not command us to be happy. The Bab said we should not bring sorrow upon the believers and cause them grief, which is what happens when you judge those who are not happy.

Happiness | Bahá’í Quotes:

Happy is the man that hath apprehended the Purpose of God in whatever He hath revealed from the Heaven of His Will, that pervadeth all created things.
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 335

Happy is the man who hath recognized Thee, and discovered the sweetness of Thy fragrance, and set himself towards Thy kingdom, and tasted of the things that have been perfected therein by Thy grace and favor.
Bahá’u’lláh, Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh, p. 54

Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty. Happy is the lover that hath inhaled the divine fragrance of his Best-Beloved from these words, laden with the perfume of a grace which no tongue can describe.
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 20

In the Bayán no act of worship is nearer unto His acceptance than bringing joy to the hearts of the believers, and none more remote than inflicting sorrow upon them.
The Báb, Persian Bayán VII, 18

Therefore, in the Bayán there is no act of obedience that ensureth greater nearness to God than bringing joy to the hearts of the faithful, even as naught yieldeth more remoteness than causing them grief. This law is doubly binding in dealing with the possessors of circles (women), whether in causing them joy or grief. However, man must always be watchful that even if he fail to bring joy to a human being, at least he should refrain from causing him grief.
The Báb, Persian Bayán 7, 18, quoted in Gate of the Heart: Understanding the Writings of the Báb by Nader Saiedi, p. 322

 

[Pete in Panama]

...that people can just 'choose' to be happy but I disagree with that assumption and so would any psychologist....

Somehow the impression I got from psychologists (here) was happiness was pretty much the entire goal. OK, so you have your take on the sacred texts & what psychologists say & my bet there's nothing I could possibly say to suggest a different path.

 

[Trailblazer]

Somehow the impression I got from psychologists (here) was happiness was pretty much the entire goal. OK, so you have your take on the sacred texts & what psychologists say & my bet there's nothing I could possibly say to suggest a different path.

I do not adhere to what psychologists say about happiness, because it is geared towards material happiness and personal happiness, and I believe the pursuit is such happiness is selfish. The scriptures are very clear on this.

Matthew 16:23-26 ““But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose. Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal….. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 337-338

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

“Disencumber yourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof. Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you from entering the straight and glorious Path……. Whatsoever deterreth you, in this Day, from loving God is nothing but the world. Flee it, that ye may be numbered with the blest.” Gleanings, p. 276

 

[Trailblazer]

Wait a sec, you're trying to tell me that the vast majority of humans in the world are so completely miserable that they'd wish they were never born?

Why does it have to be the vast majority?

 

[Pete in Panama]

Why does it have to be the vast majority?

That's what I was wondering. What he said was:

...God could take part in the kind of cruelty inflicted on the vast majority of humans...

At first my guess was that he misspoke but he seems to be standing by it.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

At first my guess was that he misspoke but he seems to be standing by it.

No, you misquoted. I said, "NO God could take part in that kind of cruelty."

 

[Trailblazer]

That's what I was wondering. What he said was:At first my guess was that he misspoke but he seems to be standing by it.

No, I do not think that it is the vast majority, it is probably a subset of people.