If God exists why does He allow suffering?

[darkskies]

How come? Would you explain you reasoning?

I thought it's self-evident. There is just too much suffering for every single human being to be cared about. Perhaps humanity as a whole could in a god's interest, but it's certain that everyone individually doesn't get an equal shot at living life.

 

[We Never Know]

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” She feels as if she’s coping just fine now without believing in God and she certainly appears to be.

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

I’ve put this in the general debates section to allow freedom of expression. I’m wanting to better understand why this is such a critical issue for so many people rather than debate. Thanks in advance for those who drop by to offer their sincere thoughts about how suffering affects their faith.

Why does a prisoner suffer in prison by confinement, loss of freedom, etc? Because of their own actions being they knew what they could and couldn't do but chose to do what they shouldn't.

If children know what they can and cant do because their parents told them but choose to do what they were told not to do, don't they suffer from their own actions?

Why do humans suffer? The tale christians tell is humans suffer because adam and eve had a perfect life with no suffering and would live forever but... they were told what they could and couldn't do but chose(that freewill gig)to do what they were told not to do so from that all mankind suffers from their actions.


However how can a god that may not exist be responsible for any sufferings?

 

[Trailblazer]

A strange thing about happiness is that people who are happy are the way they are regardless of circumstances.

You have no idea how you just made my day.
And coming from a Baha'i it means more than you will ever know.
You are right of course, some people are happy are the way they are regardless of circumstances, and it is not because they are "more spiritual." It is because of their predisposition which is hereditary.

I have to struggle right now to maintain a positive outlook --it's hard work. My wife is naturally happy & a godsend/example to me so maybe I can die like that rabbi after all some day.

Unfortunately my husband is not naturally happy but he is not naturally prone to depression like me either. He is rather neutral but he constantly complains about physical problems and although he has nothing that serious considering his advanced age you'd think he is dying sometimes. No, he is not happy, he just does not realize it. He has given up on life so he is just going through the motions of living, and his rituals that keep him going.

 

[Trailblazer]

So there has to be some other explanation. Either that or there is no God.

I believe there is some other explanation but I do not believe any of the Abrahamic religions or the Baha'is have it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know what you mean. I didn't set out to be a deist. It was forced on me by what I saw happening all around me: Injustice, random reward and punishment without any kind of discernible pattern i.e. the evil people living rewarding lives and the good people having all sorts of horrors inflicted on them, no God in sight to regulate anything. Doesn't make a bit of sense until you accept deism. Then it all falls into place.

I know what you mean. I didn't set out to be a Baha'i. It was forced on me by all the evidence I saw for Baha'u'lah being who He claimed to be which I could not refute.

What I saw happening all around me: Injustice, random reward and punishment without any kind of discernible pattern i.e. the evil people living rewarding lives and the good people having all sorts of horrors inflicted on them, none of it made any sense without the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Then it all fell into place.
Mind you, that does not mean I have to like the world that God created but at least I can make sense out of why it was created that way and the end goal God had in mind.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It wasn’t something that resembled a snake until after the sin punishment. Go look. But either way, the fallen “prince of this world” was a celestial personality who was already fallen when Adam arrived as evidenced in the narrative.

Maybe the authors of scripture should have inserted ***allegory to help us understand where the Baha’i people would one day remodel the Bible?

How Baha'is see the Bible is similar to mainstream Biblical scholarship. It's the fundamentalists and biblical literalist that are out of step.

 

[Neuropteron]

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs.

Hi,

Your response in this case seems to be very discerning and caring.
A person suffering extraordinary affliction is understandably not so much interested in why God allows suffering, but why He does not stop them immediately. Thus as you did, empathy can be the best comfort.

Its easy to ask a question, sometimes the person inquiring is not ready for the answer since an answer can often requires patience and willingness to accept it, this is especially true regarding the issue of allowing suffering.

One of the problems today ia that answers have to be given under a few minuntes to be accepted. The famous philosoper Neol Chomsky explained that this was the reason he declined any television interview as he had only 3 minutes time to answer questions.

This however does not mean that God does not have a reason for allowing it. The explanation in the Bible is availbable to any one that finds it important enough to take the time to find and understand it.

An example of this can be found in the book of Job. Chapter one outlines some of the suffering he went through. Chapter two explain the reason for them. Reading through the whole book of Job will give the reader a valuable insight on some of the reason why we might have to experience suffering.

A simple explanation although certainly not comprehensive is 1Cor 4:4 where it is shown that Satan is (temporarily) in control of this world.

Additionally an understanding of why Christ had to suffer and die will without any doubt clarify why such suffering might come upon us as well.

Whether a person believes these scriptural explanation or not is irrelevant, the fact is that the answer is there for those willing to see it.

Ultimately we should never forget that God is not the source of our pain but that He is the one that promises not only an end to them, but a complete restoration of all that is lost (Rev21:4) just as he gave to Job.

 

[We Never Know]

How Baha'is see the Bible is similar to mainstream Biblical scholarship. It's the fundamentalists and biblical literalist that are out of step.

How is your Baha belief in a god shown more acceptable with evidence than anyone elses?
Or is it just an acceptable path you choose for yourself?

 

[1213]

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” ...

I believe it is because people wanted to know evil. In the beginning, people wanted to know it and therefore were expelled from life to this first death. Here we can learn what evil, being without God, really means. Luckily this is only a short lesson and those who are, or become righteous, can return to life with God. In Biblical point of view this “life” is like Matrix in that movie. Soul experiences things through a body here, but it can’t be destroyed by anything of this world, which I why evil is not a problem.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell…
Matt. 10:28

Obviously, this “life” can be painful, but, if one believes in God, he/she should have the focus on higher matters than this temporary lesson, in my opinion.

"Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

 

[firedragon]

Yeah, I'm trying to better understand why suffering is a deal breaker for some who would deny the existence of God. I'm wondering if its one of those areas where the psychology of theists (of the Abrahamic variety) and atheists diverge. The issue of suffering doesn't affect the way I see God too much. I do believe it is a genuine problem for at least some atheists and agnostics and not necessarily an excuse for an argument.

Like you, my belief in God has a very different foundation. That foundation is in part based on the historicity of the Prophets of God and the written account of their Lives and Teachings. Those written accounts include the Gospels, Quran and the Baha'i Writings.

I may be quoting anecdotal experience, but in my experience, many of the bringing up of the question of theodicy and dismissal of God based on the suffering argument is done by people who already had the anti theism view point. Either they were always atheists, or they became atheists and then built up the suffering argument.

But that is from my personal experience and the experience of most people who call themselves propagators of a religion that I have met. There is no research to this so cannot generalise.

Peace.

 

[viole]

I promise you Viole.

You promise He exists? Well, that is strong evidence

Just stay out of Covid's way and you will see.

What does it mean? If I manage to not get infected, then I will see that God exists?

But the Devil is smarter than both of us.

i think Satan’s intelligence is overrated. Rebelling against an omnipotent, and omniscient being, and hoping to win, looks like the most stupid thing in the whole Universe.

Satan knows this, by not only spreading the legality of abortion, but by it's popularization in multiple large jurisdictions around the world, he could make a considerable dent in the number of Saints that enter into the world. And so create a delay.

Abortion? Do you really think it is immoral, considering that those souls will go to Heaven risk free? Without going through that rapture stuff, judgement, landing Messiahs, red tape involving big books of life and such.

i would say that if Christianity is true, aborting would be a morally compelling thing to do. And, as a bonus, you also contribute to reduce Co2 emissions on this planet.

The bad news is there is only one rapture, there's not a second chance.

What happens to people’s pets? Will they also fly to meet Jesus in the clouds? If not, I am thinking to sell rapture insurances. For a mere 100$ a month from now on, I will take care of Christians pets during a rapture. As a qualified atheist, I expect that I will be left behind, too.

ciao

- viole

 

[Colt]

How Baha'is see the Bible is similar to mainstream Biblical scholarship. It's the fundamentalists and biblical literalist that are out of step.

Mainstreamers are more worldly and unbelieving. The majority of professed Christians are actually secularists.

 

[joe1776]

What part specifically?

I bet I can.


The part where you say there is no other method that is just as effective?

" In order to make that deduction you have to assume that there is a more effective, or at least just as effective, and kinder way than suffering to teach us.

I don't see how one can possibly make that assumption, so I take the evidence of the world as it is and reason my way to a plausible explanation."


Or the part where you mentioned God could actually have done some other way but just didn't want to?

"I can't tell you why it didn't create the world as you would have wanted it. I can only speculate that it probably could have but didn't want to."

OK, I now see why we have a misunderstanding. When you wrote that "It is logically possible to grant humans the utmost moral progress instantly." I didn't realize that you thought it logical that that kind of world could teach humans with free will to progress morally. No, that isn't logical.

I thought you were offering a world where everyone is created good which doesn't logically teach us anything. That's why I answered:"I can't tell you why it didn't create the world as you would have wanted it. I can only speculate that it probably could have but didn't want to."

 

[Colt]

OK, I now see why we have a misunderstanding. When you wrote that "It is logically possible to grant humans the utmost moral progress instantly." I didn't realize that you thought it logical that kind of world logically teach humans with free will to progress morally. It doesn't.

I thought you were offering a world where everyone is created good which doesn't logically teach us anything. That's why I answered:"I can't tell you why it didn't create the world as you would have wanted it. I can only speculate that it probably could have but didn't want to."

That’s my observation of deists as well. They have ideas about how God should be running the world. Since it’s not how they would design life, God must be absent.

 

[joe1776]

I do not need a counter-argument because you have no argument to counter. At most all you have is a belief.

The argument supporting the claim that suffering was created as a necessary challenge to motivate moral progress:

P1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise)
P2 We humans were created with free will and capable of both bad and good behavior.
P3 Bad behavior adds to suffering
P4 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate change.
P5 We humans have indeed been making moral progress.
C1 Therefore, it's likely that suffering was created as a necessary challenge to motivate moral progress.

 

[oldbadger]

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” She feels as if she’s coping just fine now without believing in God and she certainly appears to be.

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

I’ve put this in the general debates section to allow freedom of expression. I’m wanting to better understand why this is such a critical issue for so many people rather than debate. Thanks in advance for those who drop by to offer their sincere thoughts about how suffering affects their faith.

As a Deist I accept that since God is everything, everywhere then God is far too huge to be aware of this spec of dust, our home.

And so my superior being here is Mother Nature, and she gives and takes by chance and fate. I have the same chances as our little dachshunds, or Dolly Duck who is digging around in my wife's flower pots just now. Actually I would think that Dolly Duck is the most at risk from fate ...just now.

 

[oldbadger]

That’s my observation of deists as well. They have ideas about how God should be running the world. Since it’s not how they would design life, God must be absent.

Not this one.
As a Deist, I see God's representative, Mother Nature, as running this world.
And 'yes', there are times when I fear her..... oh yes!

 

[Colt]

Not this one.
As a Deist, I see God's representative, Mother Nature, as running this world.
And 'yes', there are times when I fear her..... oh yes!

I don't believe in the nature Mother God.

 

[Dave Watchman]

You promise He exists? Well, that is strong evidence

It is because it's coming from me.

I think I'm sitting here on the empirical.

What does it mean? If I manage to not get infected, then I will see that God exists?

Pretty much.

Don't get hit by a bus.

New mutations are multiplying fast on a global scale.

The P1 variant is in New York.

Stay safe and all that.

i think Satan’s intelligence is overrated. Rebelling against an omnipotent, and omniscient being, and hoping to win, looks like the most stupid thing in the whole Universe.

See, now you're talking my language.

I agree with you.

But he must have some better strategy on the go, more than just taking as many as he can with him to his destruction. Something better than coercing all the lost to rush the Beloved City in Revelation 20, while he sits back and watches.

Maybe he thinks God will change his mind at the last minute?

Or maybe not.

Maybe he'd rather choose non-existence than living for eternity in the Kingdom of God.

Being caught up in the Devil's bargain is a deadly bargain to be caught up in.

Abortion? Do you really think it is immoral, considering that those souls will go to Heaven risk free? Without going through that rapture stuff, judgement, landing Messiahs, red tape involving big books of life and such.

i would say that if Christianity is true, aborting would be a morally compelling thing to do. And, as a bonus, you also contribute to reduce Co2 emissions on this planet.

I'm not sure they do all go to heaven risk free.

It's a touchy subject.

Would baby Hitler go to heaven risk free?

If she were to employ your logic, Hitler's mother might have thought to throw baby Hitler over a bridge as an infant.

Immorality is beside the point of my argument.

Just go back to the first country in the world who legalized abortion in 1920.

Abortion in Russia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Abortion in Russia is legal as an elective procedure up to the 12th week of pregnancy, and in special circumstances at later stages.[1] In 1920, the Russian Soviet Republic under Lenin became the first country in the world in the modern era to allow abortion in all circumstances, but over the course of the 20th century, the legality of abortion changed more than once, with a ban being enacted again from 1936 to 1955. Russia had the highest number of abortions per woman of child-bearing age in the world according to UN data as of 2010.[2] In terms of the total number, in 2009 China reported that it had over 13 million abortions,[3] out of a population of 1.3 billion, compared to the 1.2 million abortions in Russia,[4] out of a population of 143 million people.
​

What Satan has been doing since that time, is similar to what he did in the first century when he tried to kill baby Jesus, the slaughter of the innocents.

Some of those babies, lost to abortion, were meant to be our Brothers and our fellow Servants. The Dragon has been cast down having great wrath for he knows that his time is short. He can delay his ending a little bit by postponing the arrival of the remainder of God's People. It's like that tune, how I want to be in that number when the Saints go marching in. There is a specific number. This is the delay, I say.

"They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. - Revelation 6:10-11​

The second coming events, including the resurrection/rapture can't begin until all participants are in place. Some of God's People, a substantial number, have been delayed. They are MIA.

What happens to people’s pets? Will they also fly to meet Jesus in the clouds? If not, I am thinking to sell rapture insurances. For a mere 100$ a month from now on, I will take care of Christians pets during a rapture. As a qualified atheist, I expect that I will be left behind, too.

I think I will get MY pets back, but I'm not sure about all the animals, or the pets belonging to the lost.

There was a guy who wrote a pretty good note on the subject, I lost track of it.

You'll be too stressed to be a pet watcher after the rapture.

It's a nice thought though.

I'm afraid there is only one resurrection/rapture event, based on my read.

It probably IS the sign of the Son of Man that will cause all tribes remaining on the Earth to mourn.

When they see billions of resurrected Saints light up the stratosphere, some like the brightness of the firmament, some like the stars forever and ever, all the tribes of the Earth will mourn.

No time to feed the gold fish.

No country for old men.

Armageddon time.

Chow Mein

- Dave

 

[viole]

Would baby Hitler go to heaven risk free?

Probably. And wouldn’t have been better to abort him?

So, either they go to heaven immediately, or not. In the latter case, we got rid of them on time.

sounds logical, doesn’t it? Win win situation.

Btw, I see no problem whatsoever with abortion. Especially when the terminated embryo is so young that only a microbiologist would tell the difference from the embryo of an amoeba. Why people think that terminating blastocysts is, from my point of view, mind boggling.

ciao

- viole