If God exists why does He allow suffering?

[joe1776]

Generally when people think of God they think of God as being able to do anything that is (logically) possible. Do you agree with this assessment?

It is logically possible to grant humans the utmost moral progress instantly. If God is not able to do that then he lacks potence.

If a Creator exists, and I do allow that possibility, I assume it created the world as it wanted to. I can't tell you why it didn't create the world as you would have wanted it. I can only speculate that it probably could have but didn't want to.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If you had really suffered maybe you would know why, but no man can know the suffering of another man unless he has walked a mile in his moccasins.

Maybe suffering is a deal-breaker because believers insist that God has all these attributes that do not comport with what logical people see in the world. If people could just believe that God exists without accepting all the baggage that goes along with that belief, maybe more people could believe in God.

I agree. No one can truly assess the extent to which another has suffered. Subjectively we could underestimate or overestimate our personal suffering. No one knows for sure except God, if He exists and is truly All-Knowing and Omniscient.

One of my work roles currently is assessing incapacity insurance claims for those who have experienced childhood sexual abuse. Some have experienced sexual abuse from a close family relative such as a father, brother, uncle or cousin over an extended period of time. There may be a mother who is oblivious to their daughter's problems and can not concieve that such abominable behaviour is taking place by a trusted family member within the security of the home environment. There may be drug and alcohol abuse in the mix. Severe psychological problems may render a parent unable to do much more than provide a roof over their child's head and meet their physical needs if that.

I've come across refugees from countries who have experienced persecution and their lives have been threatened over a sustained period. They may have witnessed or experienced physical assault, the loss of their livelihood and property, or even the murder of loved ones. The Prophet Baha'u'llah whom I follow endured torture, imprisonment, extreme loss and deprivation and exile for that He believed.

There are many on this planet who could never experience the time and luxury to have the conversation we can have. They may not have the material means to access the internet, may be illiterate and in such dire circumstances they consider themselves fortunate if they have enough to eat on any given day.

Of these people who have experienced dire and sustained adversity over extended periods, many are theists and find meaning and solace in their faith.

I agree with you though. Just because a person speaks little of their suffering, does not mean they have suffered little. Just because a person speaks a great deal of their suffering does not mean their suffering exceeds that of others. Only God knows our hearts and what we have truly endured.

 

[Colt]

Belief in the God of Abraham for me does not depend on the belief Lucifer rebelled against God. I don't believe Lucifer did rebel because he doesn't exist. The story is an allegorical one to help us understand the nature of God, reality and our connection to the Divine. But if a belief in a literal Lucifer works for you, I'm all for it.

If there was no Lucifer or Satan or devil or Crafty Beast or Prince of this world, or demons, or EVIL etc, then it’s the scripture and religion in general that has mislead people.

Are there any other central figures in the Bible that are just allegorical? Abraham allegorical? The prophets?

 

[Koldo]

If a Creator exists, and I do allow that possibility, I assume it created the world as it wanted to. I can't tell you why it didn't create the world as you would have wanted it. I can only speculate that it probably could have but didn't want to.

I don't understand. You started by saying that there is no other method that would be just as effective to achieve moral progress. But once I have pointed out that this would entail a lack of potence on God's part, you say that God could have done it some other way, he just didn't want to.

So, which one is it? Either he can do it or not. Either he would like to do it or not. I have things to say about both cases but I need to understand where exactly you stand on this.

 

[Trailblazer]

In order to make that deduction you have to assume that there is a more effective, or at least just as effective, and kinder way than suffering to teach us.

I don't see how one can possibly make that assumption, so I take the evidence of the world as it is and reason my way to a plausible explanation.

Nor can we make the assumption that there could not have been a way that was just as effective and kinder than suffering to teach us.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have never seen any evidence to prove omni whatever. On the contrary i see much that shows such power/understanding cannot exist.

Example, omnipotent, unlimited power, power requires energy, unlimited power requires infinite energy. Given the first law of thermodynamics and the fact that you and i exist there is nothing with all the (infinite) energy.

Its an interesting line of thought. If an All-Powerful God exists wouldn't we expect to see God manifest Himself in this world in an obvious way that displayed his Prowess and Energy? The Sun is a powerful celestial body in the phenomenal world whose presence is obvious. Wouldn't a Being whose energy and power exceeds that of the sun be even more manifest and obvious? It would be fascinating to examine and deconstruct that particular line of reasoning but another time. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you feel there is something unfair about going through certain events, it might be hard to see how a kind and caring God could allow them to happen.

The 100 dollar question is whether our feelings are right or wrong.

 

[Colt]

So in the spiritual world rebelling against God is possible? And was the leader of those that rebelled, along with his followers were cast down to Earth? Or can they still roam around in the spiritual world? Then one day God will destroy them along with all the humans that didn't obey God? Then what? No more necessity for pain and suffering? No more free will? No more good versus evil? There will only be good? Then why did God think it was such a good idea to do it now? What did it really accomplish? Didn't God know who would believe and follow him, and who would reject him? But God wanted it to play out anyway?

Good and evil existed in the universe prior to Lucifers rebellion.

Lucifer knew the Son but lived by faith in the Father. In his own mind he launched a rebellion against the existence of the Universal Father.

The “Crafty Beast” of our world was swept up in the rebellion and attempted to corrupt as many as he could.

The rebellion didn’t cause pain, suffering and death which is normal for our world. But had Adam and Eve remained loyal many of our viruses, diseases, cancers, genetically inherited disorders would have been eradicated long ago.

The all wise rulers allowed the rebellion as a free speech issue. It was so catastrophic that such a high, trusted universe personality fell into sin that to stop his declaration of liberty and freedom to speak could have lead to many more losses.

The Lucifer rebellion was terminated while the Son was on earth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If there was no Lucifer or Satan or devil or Crafty Beast or Prince of this world, or demons, or EVIL etc, then it’s the scripture and religion in general that has mislead people.

Are there any other central figures in the Bible that are just allegorical? Abraham allegorical? The prophets?

The Prophets in the Bible were real characters IMHO though a few of the stories attributed to some of them are likely allegorical. I don't believe a talking serpent literally misled Adam through conversing with Eve. Do you? Adam may well have existed though. A world wide flood and an Ark that sheltered all the animals and Noah's family is most likely allegorical too. Did Noah exist? I believe He did. Jesus was almost certainly historical. Was He resurrected three days after His crucifixion and then ascended through the Stratosphere into outer space to sit on the right side of His Father in heaven? Sounds allegorical.

 

[Colt]

The Prophets in the Bible were real characters IMHO though a few of the stories attributed to some of them are likely allegorical. I don't believe a talking serpent literally misled Adam through conversing with Eve. Do you? Adam may well have existed though. A world wide flood and an Ark that sheltered all the animals and Noah's family is most likely allegorical too. Did Noah exist? I believe He did. Jesus was almost certainly historical. Was He resurrected three days after His crucifixion and then ascended through the Stratosphere into outer space to sit on the right side of His Father in heaven? Sounds allegorical.

It wasn’t something that resembled a snake until after the sin punishment. Go look. But either way, the fallen “prince of this world” was a celestial personality who was already fallen when Adam arrived as evidenced in the narrative.

Maybe the authors of scripture should have inserted ***allegory to help us understand where the Baha’i people would one day remodel the Bible?

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree. No one can truly assess the extent to which another has suffered. Subjectively we could underestimate or overestimate our personal suffering. No one knows for sure except God, if He exists and is truly All-Knowing and Omniscient.

Since suffering is subjective, it simply is what it is, even if it does not seem to be warranted by other people looking at our lives. God knows since God is closer to us than we are to ourselves, but that does not help me much if at all.

The Prophet Baha'u'llah whom I follow endured torture, imprisonment, extreme loss and deprivation and exile for that He believed.

I do not think it is fair to compare ourselves to Baha'u'llah or even Abdu'l-Baha because thye knew things about God and the afterlife that we can never know; all we can do is believe them.

There are many on this planet who could never experience the time and luxury to have the conversation we can have. They may not have the material means to access the internet, may be illiterate and in such dire circumstances they consider themselves fortunate if they have enough to eat on any given day.

Who is to say I am on this forum because I enjoy it?
And despite their lack of material means they might be happier than I am with more material means than I will ever need. Suffering is subjective.

Of these people who have experienced dire and sustained adversity over extended periods, many are theists and find meaning and solace in their faith.

Some do, but if you looked at their lives they probably had a good start in life, with parents who cared and other family and social support. They probably also had some religious upbringing. They probably did not have a genetic predisposition to depression and anxiety.

I agree with you though. Just because a person speaks little of their suffering, does not mean they have suffered little. Just because a person speaks a great deal of their suffering does not mean their suffering exceeds that of others. Only God knows our hearts and what we have truly endured.

That's true, some people share their suffering and others don't, so we can never know. God knows what we have endured and are enduring but that is of little help if all He does is stand around watching. I cannot understand how believers cannot see that as abandonment. Well, maybe I see it that way because I was emotionally abandoned as a child, but whose fault was that? Who decided those would be my parents? The buck stops with God since God determines our fate. Our free will is very limited and we are not free to choose our parents. We have some freedom what we will do as the result of our childhood but it is very limited in scope.

 

[joe1776]

I don't understand. You started by saying that there is no other method that would be just as effective to achieve moral progress. But once I have pointed out that this would entail a lack of potence on God's part, you say that God could have done it some other way, he just didn't want to..

I didn't write that. If I did, you should be able to quote me in context. I'll bet you can't.

 

[Dawnofhope]

First off: I see this question as one particular narrower version of a larger question: why is absolutely everything we see around us entirely consistent with the assumption that no gods exist? When looked at through that lens, hopefully you can see it raises issues for theism generally.

That being said, it should be a simple question for theists to answer. Whether they say "I don't believe God is powerful enough to prevent the suffering we see around us" or "I believe that God just doesn't care about suffering," either of those answers would resolve the dilemma.

... but in practice, something odd happens, at least with monotheists: apparently, they can't answer. I've never heard a monotheist give a straight answer to the problem of suffering.

The problem of suffering isn't an issue for every conceivable form of theism, but it sure seems to be a major problem for the mainstream monotheistic religions.

Thanks for that. It is undeniable that suffering exists in this life. Like my Abrahamic cousins, I believe God is powerful enough to prevent suffering and that He does care for His Creation. He tends not to intervene directly in most cases. His main mode of intervention is through guidance through His Prophets, their Teachings and the example of their lives. All the Prophets of God have suffered and their response to suffering can often be of practical assistance. You don't need to be a theist to positively respond to suffering and many atheists respond positively to suffering just as the Prophets have. Ironically many atheists live and respond to suffering better than those who claim to be theists.

I personally don't see reconciling theism and suffering as being particularly problematic. I'm intrigued by those such as yourself who do. It sounds as if there is a significant difference between how atheists such as yourself and monotheist view the narrative that reconciles suffering with an All-Powerful and Loving God.

 

[joe1776]

Nor can we make the assumption that there could not have been a way that was just as effective and kinder than suffering to teach us.

Sure, feel free. That assumption merely allows doubt but doesn't form a counter-argument.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure, feel free. That assumption merely allows doubt but doesn't form a counter-argument.

I do not need a counter-argument because you have no argument to counter. At most all you have is a belief.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” She feels as if she’s coping just fine now without believing in God and she certainly appears to be.

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

I’ve put this in the general debates section to allow freedom of expression. I’m wanting to better understand why this is such a critical issue for so many people rather than debate. Thanks in advance for those who drop by to offer their sincere thoughts about how suffering affects their faith.

Some don't suffer a single day in their life. I'd put Trump in this category. Others suffer every single day of their lives. To conclude God is behind this is to admit God is anything but fair. Nobody in this life deserves to be taught a lesson more than Trump if that is what suffering is supposed to be for yet he escapes scott-free. Why? Others who suffer terribly are kind decent good-hearted people who don't deserve to suffer yet they do. Why? If one tries to seek logical answers for these kinds of unjust discrepancies in justice they will go crazy. Why? because there isn't any rhyme or reason to who suffers in life and who doesn't. It's all random. That's why to attribute suffering to a higher power is futile. It's best to simply admit what I believe is the truth: God is deist. He doesn't get involved in all this. He has made himself completely absent from this world and has let the laws of nature run it. Nature doesn't pick and choose who suffers and who doesn't. Evolution and the laws of randomness/odds do.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I dearly hope that I could die like that, though my luck they'd have to zonk me w/ pain killers/mood elevators (better living thru chemistry) & my mind might not be as clear. I have to struggle right now to maintain a positive outlook --it's hard work. My wife is naturally happy & a godsend/example to me so maybe I can die like that rabbi after all some day.

The government is severely cutting back on the use of opioids even for terminally ill people. It's not uncommon for doctors to refuse to prescribe them to dying people in pain for fear of losing their license so you're in luck. Those who want to be zonked at the end of their lives, however might face a challenge unless things change politically. That said, I think Alzheimers is the kindest disease to die from because you don't know you're dying. You just die.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's best to simply admit what I believe is the truth: God is deist. He doesn't get involved in all this. He has made himself completely absent from this world and has let the laws of nature run it. Nature doesn't pick and choose who suffers and who doesn't. Evolution and the laws of randomness/odds do.

You have come up with a solution....
I only wish I could believe that God is a deist God but as it is I am stuck with a God who has Attributes that don't fit. It is like trying to put on a pair of shoes that don't fit; you just keep trying and trying to no avail and then you only wish you could throw those shoes right out the window, but when you do you get them thrown right back in your face by a bunch of believers.

But actually, I can be a Baha'i and still accept your description of the uninvolved God since God really does not get involved with us just because He speaks to Messengers.

 

[Koldo]

I didn't write that. If I did, you should be able to quote me in context. I'll bet you can't.

What part specifically?

I bet I can.


The part where you say there is no other method that is just as effective?

" In order to make that deduction you have to assume that there is a more effective, or at least just as effective, and kinder way than suffering to teach us.

I don't see how one can possibly make that assumption, so I take the evidence of the world as it is and reason my way to a plausible explanation."


Or the part where you mentioned God could actually have done some other way but just didn't want to?

"I can't tell you why it didn't create the world as you would have wanted it. I can only speculate that it probably could have but didn't want to."

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

You have come up with a solution....
I only wish I could believe that God is a deist God but as it is I am stuck with a God who has Attributes that don't fit. It is like trying to put on a pair of shoes that don't fit; you just keep trying and trying to no avail; and then you only wish you could throw those shoes right out the window, but when you do you get them thrown right back in your face by a bunch of believers.

I know what you mean. I didn't set out to be a deist. It was forced on me by what I saw happening all around me: Injustice, random reward and punishment without any kind of discernible pattern i.e. the evil people living rewarding lives and the good people having all sorts of horrors inflicted on them, no God in sight to regulate anything. Doesn't make a bit of sense until you accept deism. Then it all falls into place.