If God exists why does He allow suffering?

[Dawnofhope]

I think it disproves a god who cares about all humans equally.

How come? Would you explain you reasoning?

 

[joe1776]

I am not sure I understand you.
Do you mean that God can not teach us just as effectively in some other way?

I think that's a fair assumption, yes.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That was Epicurus's starting point, of course.

And Aquinas's too, but his 'free will' explanation is simply a rationalizing, albeit a famous one.

I don't think Epicurus or Aquinas or hard-eyed reason matter at such times. The question is, what helps to deal with the grief. If faith can do that, I suspect the question answers itself.

I certainly take a pragmatic approach to faith. If it works then go with it. If it doesn't, why continue with it.

The comment about innocents suffering and dying is the undeniable reality of life for some of us. It is also an intensely emotional experience to have a young child who develops cancer and dies. I have a niece who passed away of a brain tumor aged 8 years of age. My sister has never recovered from the grief. I take a very matter of fact approach to it all. We all die and some of us die young. Some of us die instantly and others over a prolonged period where there may be protracted pain, both physical and emotional. We may experience an intense grief reaction that can overwhelm us and hopefully enable us to become more empathetic and connected to our fellow human.

Faith for me is about finding the best way to cope and respond to adversity. Prayer and reading sacred writings can elevate the mind and spirit, in much the same way the arts can through poetry and music. It can also help to find meaning as opposed to nihilism and despair.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Without the potential of suffering and imperfection there would be no free will. Joy and sadness, Good vrs evil etc.

Part of our suffering is a consequence of Lucifers rebellion against God.

Belief in the God of Abraham for me does not depend on the belief Lucifer rebelled against God. I don't believe Lucifer did rebel because he doesn't exist. The story is an allegorical one to help us understand the nature of God, reality and our connection to the Divine. But if a belief in a literal Lucifer works for you, I'm all for it.

 

[YoursTrue]

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” She feels as if she’s coping just fine now without believing in God and she certainly appears to be.

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

I’ve put this in the general debates section to allow freedom of expression. I’m wanting to better understand why this is such a critical issue for so many people rather than debate. Thanks in advance for those who drop by to offer their sincere thoughts about how suffering affects their faith.

I haven't read all the posts, but do you have a way of thinking that gets you to reason why, if there is a god, he, it, they or she (however you believe), allows or causes suffering?

 

[Trailblazer]

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

I do not believe that suffering rules out the existence of God, but I do believe that it rules out the existence of a loving and benevolent God. Religious apologists try to make this work by saying that suffering is for our benefit, but it is STILL suffering, and not everyone benefits from suffering, as many will attest to. I believe it is arrogant to tell those people that they really are benefiting but they don't realize it, as who are they to speak for other people? I will remind you what Baha'u'lah wrote:

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

The existence of suffering affects my beliefs about God in a negative fashion. I do not believe that God is all He is cracked up to be by Christians and Baha'is -- loving, merciful, and kind. I cannot believe that because it flies in the face of the evidence, namely all the suffering I see in the world. My logical mind will not accommodate such a belief. Admittedly my beliefs are affected by my own lifelong suffering which no doubt will continue till the end of my life, but I realize that many others have suffered much more than I have, although only God knows who suffers most.

Who am I to say of a Creator God could have done a better job of creating the universe? All I can say is that I do not like what I see and I believe it is cruel for God to make people endure life in this world even it it is not forever. I also believe it is grossly unfair that some people suffer so much more than others through no fault of their own. Indeed, some people hardly suffer at all while others suffer throughout their lives.

I already know the Baha'i apologetic answer to that is that people who suffer will be better off after they die, stronger and more spiritual. How do they know that? They don't know; they just believe they know based upon how they interpret some of the Baha'i Writings. It would be more honest to say that they don't know and that God does whatever He chooses and pleases to do, and maybe we will know more about why we had to suffer after we die and enter the spiritual world.

The only reason I became a Baha'i and I am still l a Baha'i is because I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, period. That is based upon the preponderance of evidence which is irrefutable. I ask people to try to refute it because the last thing I want is to be a Baha'i. Of course, that is my lower selfish nature speaking, but I have to fight it constantly, because I derive nothing for myself by being a Baha'i. Long ago I conceded to the fact that it does not matter what I get because I do not matter. Only the Cause of God matters, so if I can carry the message to others that is enough reason to remain a Baha'i.

My husband who has been a Baha'i for over 55 years knows how I feel about God and he often asks me why i don't become an atheist. How does one become an atheist when they are certain that God exists? Unfortunately, as a Baha'i I know I cannot run away from God. I am a rotten Baha'i because I do not even love God the way I am supposed to, but I cannot pretend to love a God that has allowed so much suffering. I do try to but so far all my efforts have been in vain.

 

[Koldo]

I think that's a fair assumption, yes.

Alright. That puts a limit on God's potence though. Most theists don't like saying that God can't do something.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Honestly, anecdotally, most of the people who call themselves atheists or agnostics who bring this topic up are just bringing it up to debate. I think its obvious because God or the existence of God is no more a "critical issue" as you put it for them. But there some who became agnostic or atheistic because they went through this question and could not find a solution. They use this as a debate tactic for a long long time, but they left the theology because this suffering could not be reconciled with the existence of an all knowing God. Them I actually find honestly bringing it up.

Anyway, you will not find a proper response to this other than apologetics. Theodicy has been a topic for way too long but none of those are like revelation, they are apologetics.

The issue with me is suffering does not affect my beliefs about God. It makes me question nonsense in theology. I dont know if that makes any sense to you. The conviction there is a God to me comes from very different deductions so that is established and well grounded. Its unshakable. Theodicy brings about questions about various things, but not the existence of God. Maybe about what some scripture tries to state in it, and if it makes any sense, or if some latter persons exegesis of a part of a scripture is valid or not.

Yeah, I'm trying to better understand why suffering is a deal breaker for some who would deny the existence of God. I'm wondering if its one of those areas where the psychology of theists (of the Abrahamic variety) and atheists diverge. The issue of suffering doesn't affect the way I see God too much. I do believe it is a genuine problem for at least some atheists and agnostics and not necessarily an excuse for an argument.

Like you, my belief in God has a very different foundation. That foundation is in part based on the historicity of the Prophets of God and the written account of their Lives and Teachings. Those written accounts include the Gospels, Quran and the Baha'i Writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

I certainly take a pragmatic approach to faith. If it works then go with it. If it doesn't, why continue with it.

Why continue with it?
Do you think a reason to continue is because it works for us? That sounds awfully selfish.
If that was the basis for my being a Baha'i, I would turn in my card today and book a cruise around the world.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't think the problem was death per se, but rather how and when it happened.

Regardless, Christians aren't promised anywhere in the Bible or through tradition that they will die nice peaceful deaths of old age. Just the contrary, actually.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, I'm trying to better understand why suffering is a deal breaker for some who would deny the existence of God.

If you had really suffered maybe you would know why, but no man can know the suffering of another man unless he has walked a mile in his moccasins.

Maybe suffering is a deal-breaker because believers insist that God has all these attributes that do not comport with what logical people see in the world. If people could just believe that God exists without accepting all the baggage that goes along with that belief, maybe more people could believe in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

why Allah let people suffer I simply do not know the answer to it at this moment in time. Only Allah know that answer.

That's right, only Allah knows, although there are many religious people who believe that they know the answer.

 

[joe1776]

Alright. That puts a limit on God's potence though. Most theists don't like saying that God can't do something.

In order to make that deduction you have to assume that there is a more effective, or at least just as effective, and kinder way than suffering to teach us.

I don't see how one can possibly make that assumption, so I take the evidence of the world as it is and reason my way to a plausible explanation.

 

[CG Didymus]

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” She feels as if she’s coping just fine now without believing in God and she certainly appears to be.

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

I’ve put this in the general debates section to allow freedom of expression. I’m wanting to better understand why this is such a critical issue for so many people rather than debate. Thanks in advance for those who drop by to offer their sincere thoughts about how suffering affects their faith.

This was started today and it's already six pages long? I'm just wondering if there isn't suffering in the spiritual worlds of God, why here? If it is for spiritual growth, then we don't "grow" in the spiritual worlds? Things just seem too random. People can die or suffer from so many different things. God kills off his followers in the same ways he kills off those that don't believe in him.

 

[Trailblazer]

It might be easier to answer were the question expanded to," if God exists and has the characteristics I've been taught, why does He allow suffering?"

Sadly, the only answer I can come up with is that God does not have all those characteristics.

 

[Koldo]

Regardless, Christians aren't promised anywhere in the Bible or through tradition that they will die nice peaceful deaths of old age. Just the contrary, actually.

I don't think it is about what has been promised though. It is about what you feel. If you feel there is something unfair about going through certain events, it might be hard to see how a kind and caring God could allow them to happen.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't think it is about what has been promised though. It is about what you feel. If you feel there is something unfair about going through certain events, it might be hard to see how a kind and caring God could allow them to happen.

I understand that. Grief and loss also tends to bring out anger.

 

[CG Didymus]

Without the potential of suffering and imperfection there would be no free will. Joy and sadness, Good vrs evil etc.

Part of our suffering is a consequence of Lucifers rebellion against God.

So in the spiritual world rebelling against God is possible? And was the leader of those that rebelled, along with his followers were cast down to Earth? Or can they still roam around in the spiritual world? Then one day God will destroy them along with all the humans that didn't obey God? Then what? No more necessity for pain and suffering? No more free will? No more good versus evil? There will only be good? Then why did God think it was such a good idea to do it now? What did it really accomplish? Didn't God know who would believe and follow him, and who would reject him? But God wanted it to play out anyway?

 

[Koldo]

In order to make that deduction you have to assume that there is a more effective, or at least just as effective, and kinder way than suffering to teach us.

I don't see how one can possibly make that assumption, so I take the evidence of the world as it is and reason my way to a plausible explanation.

Generally when people think of God they think of God as being able to do anything that is (logically) possible. Do you agree with this assessment?

It is logically possible to grant humans the utmost moral progress instantly. If God is not able to do that then he lacks potence.

 

[Trailblazer]

This was started today and it's already six pages long?

There is absolutely NO WAY I will ever catch up on this thread given I already had a long list of posts to answer from other threads, but I put those aside for the time being because this is my subject. I only happened to see your post in passing, and I am glad that I did.

I'm just wondering if there isn't suffering in the spiritual worlds of God, why here? If it is for spiritual growth, then we don't "grow" in the spiritual worlds? Things just seem too random. People can die or suffer from so many different things. God kills off his followers in the same ways he kills off those that don't believe in him.

Dontcha know the Baha'i drill on this? We are supposed to suffer and grow spiritually in THIS world so we will be spiritual when we get to the the spiritual world. But we are also supposed to continue to progress in the spiritual world, from the starting point we were at when we died.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

You are right that things just seem too random and people can die or suffer from so many different things. God has no preferences when it comes to allowing suffering but it seems as if God has preferences when it comes to preventing suffering for some people. The way most Baha'is deal with that inequity is to say people who suffer in this world are better off than those who do not suffer because they will grow spiritually, as if they could ever know that.